I have had the impression that students of paddle design are convinced, based on testimonials and math equations, that one sort of paddle will allow or encourage a more efficient stroke than can be accomplished using a longer or different paddle. In order to test the question, one must have expectations about the outcome of the tests. For me, the only issue of interest concerns whether or not one paddle or another allows the engine driving the boat at some constant speed for some fixed distance to do so with greater efficiency. That means doing less work with one paddle than with another to achieve that constant speed over the fixed distance. Do you believe that such a difference, if it exists, will be detectable? What % change in work is anticipated? Do you think this change will be statistically detectable (significant at the 95% level)? Would you accept the possibility that there is no difference in the work required to push the boat as described above, but that under certain circumstances, sets of muscle better suited for sustained paddling are brought into play with certain paddles, which causes the perception that "less work" is being required to drive the boat? I would appreciate a clearer discussion about the nature of the questions being proposed for testing. Thanks, Chuck Sutherland *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It has been said that one of the advantages of the wing paddle is that it forces you to use a technique which is intrinsically efficient. By "forces" they don't mean that if you do it wrong you die or something, they mean that when you pull on the paddle it automatically moves out to the side. This lateral motion is said to be on of the keys to the efficiency of the paddle. The implication of this is, that if you don't have a wing paddle, but you use whatever you have with a similar motion to a good "wing stroke" you will get much of the same advantage. The difference between a conventional modern paddle and a wing paddle is said to be statistically significant (74% efficiency for a conventional and 89% efficiency for the wing) There is some debate as to the explanation for this difference. It may be due to a more efficient shape with the wing paddle, but it may also be due to technique difference. The trick would be to develop tests that can isolate the effect of technique. On Friday, June 20, 2003, at 08:07 PM, skimmer_at_mail3.enter.net wrote: > I have had the impression that students of paddle design are > convinced, based on testimonials and math equations, that one sort of > paddle will allow or encourage a more efficient stroke than can be > accomplished using a longer or different paddle. > > In order to test the question, one must have expectations about the > outcome of the tests. For me, the only issue of interest concerns > whether or not one paddle or another allows the engine driving the > boat at some constant speed for some fixed distance to do so with > greater efficiency. That means doing less work with one paddle than > with another to achieve that constant speed over the fixed distance. > > Do you believe that such a difference, if it exists, will be > detectable? What % change in work is anticipated? Do you think this > change will be statistically detectable (significant at the 95% level)? > > Would you accept the possibility that there is no difference in the > work required to push the boat as described above, but that under > certain circumstances, sets of muscle better suited for sustained > paddling are brought into play with certain paddles, which causes the > perception that "less work" is being required to drive the boat? > > I would appreciate a clearer discussion about the nature of the > questions being proposed for testing. > > Thanks, > Chuck Sutherland Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 21 Jun 2003 at 0:11, skimmer_at_mail3.enter.net wrote: > Do you believe that such a difference, if it exists, will be > detectable? What % change in work is anticipated? Do you think this > change will be statistically detectable (significant at the 95% > level)? Tests on humans have shown that they cannot accurately perceive differences of less than, ummm, can't remember exactly, but it's something on the order of 10%. > Would you accept the possibility that there is no difference in the > work required to push the boat as described above, but that under > certain circumstances, sets of muscle better suited for sustained > paddling are brought into play with certain paddles, which causes the > perception that "less work" is being required to drive the boat? John Winters has described a case where differences between two canoes were clearly and unanimously perceived by a number of expert paddlers. The only physical difference between them, in fact, was that one was plain white with aluminum trim and the other was a lovely red colour with gorgeous wood trim. People deluding themselves about paddles is probably just as easy to achieve in tests. > I would appreciate a clearer discussion about the nature of the > questions being proposed for testing. There are (at least) a couple of aspects that need to be covered. 1 - How the paddles actual work (and what their efficiencies really are) from the standpoint of hydrodynamics - this tells us about the underlying behavior of the paddles. 2 - How the paddles work in the hands of a paddler - this includes the biomechanical efficiencies and ergonomic details. However, of particular interest to us would be not how wing paddles work in the hands of the experts, but how the kinds of paddles _we_ use work in the ways the we use them. Some people will only be interested in the former, others only in the latter, others still in both. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael, Your comment below is exactly the reason for my relentless nagging about the need to obtain "measurements" that will reveal true answers. Not only can we not accurately "feel" small differences, I think we also can not distinguish between real differences in efficiency and differences due to the relative strengths of varied sets of muscles brought into play by different paddles and strokes. Chuck Sutherland From: "Michael Daly" <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com> To: "Paddlewise" <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Date sent: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 20:39:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] paddle analysis expectations On 21 Jun 2003 at 0:11, skimmer_at_mail3.enter.net wrote: > Do you believe that such a difference, if it exists, will be > detectable? What % change in work is anticipated? Do you think > this change will be statistically detectable (significant at the > 95% level)? Tests on humans have shown that they cannot accurately perceive differences of less than, ummm, can't remember exactly, but it's something on the order of 10%. > Would you accept the possibility that there is no difference in *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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