NPR had an interesting story on the protection of wilderness. The outdoor equipment manufacturers are threatening to move a 25 million dollar trade show out of Salt Lake due to concerns about dropping wilderness protection of millions of acres in Utah. Here are the letters to the Governor: http://www.businessforwilderness.org/news/index.asp?ID=8 http://www.bdel.com/about/stand.html You can listen to this NPR program on the Web. http://www.npr.org/ It will be interesting to see if these companies can affect governmental policy. -- MZ visit my website: http://www.mzuschlag.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As counterpoint, I submit the following from a friend who runs a flight service in Idaho. It would seem that Idaho politicians may need a better sense of balance. There's got to be a compromise in here somewhere, both to protect the environment and to help humans in trouble. Every story has two sides. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ On May 27th the Idaho wing of the Civil air patrol was put on alert for a missing aircraft that had left a high mtn. air strip in the central Idaho mtns. We began the search the same day with 8 Idaho wing Air force fixed wing aircraft. the Idaho Dept. of Aeronautics refused to let us fly in to the boundaries of the designated wilderness areas. We have burned up countless man hours and aircraft hours looking for this lost plane. The state of Idaho is now run by a bunch of environmental tree hugging granola crunching freaks.The reason given for this decision was that we might upset some wild animals. at 0400 this morning the United States Airforce told the state of Idaho to stick it. The people we were looking for had left the air strip on Sunday the 25th and had not been reported until the 27th. Also these People were Military. At 0630 this morning we found the aircraft two miles beyond the wilderness boundary, In deep snow and trees. We called in a Airforce rescue helicopter who confirmed our worst fears that was that this man and woman had been alive for approx. 24 hrs. they were hurt but we could have saved them . We go on about 100 searches each year. Missing hunters to down military air craft like the A 10 that went down in Colorado I flew high bird on that one, we use to call that C&C . Yes the Enviro types are moving in and influencing the Dept's of our government; they place animals above humans, they burn down peoples homes on the edge of forests, they destroy SUV's in parking lots, they harass hunters and they lobby against grazing rights. And yet no one is calling these people domestic terrorists. Perhaps in the west we see this more then the people in the east. But terrorism is terrorism, how your thoughts on the matter? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The characterizations he makes are his and not necessarily mine. I have left his writing intact as it was sent to me. One who is interested in balance, Dave G. Poquoson, Va. At 06:35 AM 6/4/2003 -0700, Mary Zuschlag wrote: >NPR had an interesting story on the protection of wilderness. The outdoor >equipment manufacturers are threatening to move a 25 million dollar trade >show out of Salt Lake due to concerns about dropping wilderness protection >of millions of acres in Utah. Here are the letters to the Governor: >http://www.businessforwilderness.org/news/index.asp?ID=8 >http://www.bdel.com/about/stand.html >You can listen to this NPR program on the Web. >http://www.npr.org/ >It will be interesting to see if these companies can affect governmental >policy. -- MZ > >visit my website: >http://www.mzuschlag.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Yes the Enviro types are moving in and influencing the Dept's of our > government; they place animals above humans, they burn down peoples > homes on the edge of forests, they destroy SUV's in parking lots, they > harass hunters and they lobby against grazing rights. And yet no one > is calling these people domestic terrorists. Perhaps in the west we > see this more then the people in the east. But terrorism is > terrorism, how your thoughts on the matter? Now wasn't that quite an unsubstantiated rant. How about producing some independent, authoritative and verifiable cites. Until then, I'm afraid that I can not take seriously the allegation that in Idaho it is the government's policy to bar airborne search and rescue for downed aircraft. It was irresponsible to post such tripe. Richard Culpeper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Even if the incident occurred as your friend described, it is not sufficient to establish your friend's assertion that the policy set by Idaho's government is to prohibit without exemption airborne search and rescue for downed aircraft in restricted areas. First, your friend failed to set out the statute, regulation or written policy that he alleged prohibits without exemption airborne search and rescue for downed aircraft in restricted areas. Second, even if one person had stood in the way of a search, it is a hasty generalization to conclude that the government's policy is to prohibit searches in such circumstances. Third, hurling mud at environmentalists is no more than an ad hominem attack. Fourth, labeling environmentalists as terrorists and then accusing them of not valuing human lives is setting up and knocking down a straw man, for it first distorts environmentalism, and then attacks the distortion. Fifth, given your friend's utter lack of independent, authoritative and verifiable cites in support of the allegation that it is the Idaho government's policy to prohibit without exemption airborne search and rescue for downed aircraft in restricted areas, and given the utter lack of logic demonstrated by your friend in his fallacious reasoning, his conclusions should be given the weight they deserve. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--Yes the Enviro >types are moving in and influencing the Dept's of our government; they >place animals above humans, they burn down peoples homes on the edge of >forests, they destroy SUV's in parking lots, they harass hunters and they >lobby against grazing rights. And yet no one is calling these people >domestic terrorists. Perhaps in the west we see this more then the people >in the east. But terrorism is terrorism, how your thoughts on the matter? I'm an enviromentalist as are many of my friends, and my friends and I do none of the above. Sounds like an urban legend spread on talk radio. I once was told by a conservative acquaintance that he had a friend who piloted a small airplane for a biologist doing an aerial survey of spotted owls. He went on to say that this biologist saw owls all over the place but for some reason wasn't allowed to count most of them. Imagine. Spotting small nocturnal birds from the air! I was a member of a mountain rescue group for years and occasionally flew. People were hard enough to spot in daylight. -------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Dave Gorjup <dgorjup_at_cox.net> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 11:24:17 -0400 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > I once was told by a conservative acquaintance that he had a >friend who piloted a small airplane for a biologist doing an aerial >survey of spotted owls. Funny you bring up spotted owls, a good friend of mine just left for a 12 week spotted owl count in the Sierra Nevada's. No airplanes for them, she gets up at 2am every morning and tramps through the woods calling the owls in and bands them. Please, let's not start the name calling and generalizations on this list. Kayakers come in all shapes, colors and political views. We have wacky lefties and wacky righties on the list. Bringing up politics is only going to get the flames up. Let's stick to paddling and the question of the 19' Sea Lion. -Patrick (heading out to paddle in the environment) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Balance", "Importance" and "Perceptions" in terms of nature vs. "humanity" and "civilization" are a tricky business, and an endless discussion with no concrete solution. Therefore, what the heck... I'll throw my hat into the ring. Personally, I love nature. I'd rather spend a vacation in the woods living in a tent, than at a fancy hotel at a resort. On a day to day basis, though, I'll keep my house, thank you very much. I'd never kick a dog for fun - but I'll sure put a hurtin on a good steak at dinner time. I'm kind to dogs but I'll eat a cow. What does that make me? Ask me if I'd trade, say, Yellowstone NP for a cure for cancer. Damn right I would. I'd turn Yellowstone into the biggest damn paved parking lot you've ever seen, IF NO HUMAN BEING WOULD EVER DIE OF CANCER AGAIN - EVER! Would you? Would you rather save millions of human lives, or preserve an equal number of wild animals and the opportunity to see Old Faithful spout off at the mouth? Would you choose to save Yellowstone if it were you or your child dying? If it came to a vote between saving your child or saving Yellowstone, and Yellowstone won, would you be incensed? What would you say to the person who voted for Yellowstone - who basically said he'd rather see some wild animals and geysers live, then your child. I can tell you this - I'd have to be physically restrained or I'd end up in jail. Conversely, would I support, say, drilling for oil in Alaska? Nope. I'm not totally educated on that subject, but I can't help thinking that with technology what it is today, then surely there are better alternatives to power than oil. So, is ANWR more important to me (though I stand little chance of ever going there in my lifetime) than an SUV or all the SUVs in the world? Yep. I've got nothing against SUVs per se, or big cars in general. I just think that it's time the world moved beyond oil, and therefore, I'm not trading nature for oil. I don't think anyone is a true environmentalist. I think they are environmentalists in certain circumstances. Like Mary said, send in the boats, planes and cars to save a human life, not to recover some replaceable gear. Treat each instance separately, and do what makes the most sense in that situation at that point in time. Then pray that you are doing the right thing. Anyway, just 2 cents, or what ever you think it's worth. Rick PS - BTW, my wife almost died of cancer (6 year survivor now), and you better believe that in the heat of the battle, I'd have personally wrung the necks of a million cute fury little bunny rabbits in the name of medical research, to save her life. But, I wouldn't kill a single one to get a lucky rabbits foot. Especially when it wasn't so luck for the rabbit that it used to be attached to, but that's a different story altogether. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 6/5/2003 12:34:29 AM Central Daylight Time, obrien_at_mail.albanyfirefighters.com writes: > Yes the Enviro > >types are moving in and influencing the Dept's of our government; they > >place animals above humans, they burn down peoples homes on the edge of > >forests, they destroy SUV's in parking lots, they harass hunters and they > >lobby against grazing rights. And yet no one is calling these people > >domestic terrorists. Perhaps in the west we see this more then the people > >in the east. But terrorism is terrorism, how your thoughts on the matter? > I love these rugged, independent, self sufficient Western Men. First, he works for whom? Was it the Federal or State government, I'm not sure. He and his conservative, rugged, independent, Western Marlboro Man, John Wayne talkin, waiting for the apocalypse to start survivin' types are dependent on whom for their grazing rights? Where? (The Federal Government.) (The National Forest) Hark! I hear a black helicopter boys. Get the deer rifle boys, here comes the Trilateral Commission trying to make commies out of us! Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This is something we could discuss endlessly. It is not off-topic for Paddlewise, I believe, but if we confine the discussion to aspects directly tied to paddling, I suspect we will get a more focused debate. Where I live, there is a concerted effort to make more campsites for paddlers, near a wildlife refuge (the Columbia River Water Trail; Steve Scherrer has a Web site for us, I bet). This is a classic situation: almost nobody knows about the wonderful paddling down here, so the wildlife is plentiful and the meager campsite (yes, I mean __campsite singular__ -- there is only one, really that might be "wilderness") is not often overused or abused. It is on private land, and is owned by one of the large timber firms, I believe. If we see hordes of paddlers descend on us, we will need to expand that site, and/or find more sites. To a large extent, that will remove a good bit of the value of the wildlife refuge for individual paddlers: paddlers spook wildlife. OTOH, if we do not "develop" this area for its paddling potential, then paddlers will crowd into the areas that do exist. I do not have a stronger right to paddle my home waters than anybody else, but I feel crowded when I see a big party ensconced on "my" campspot. Yet, if we do not make the regulatory and decision-making bodies aware of the use there is, we may lose it to less desirable uses: the meager campsite might get logged, or maybe made off limits to us. If there becomes a Lewis and Clark National Park down here, it will attract folks from all over the nation, and it will "ruin" it for the locals, but make it available to others (who pay federal taxes just like we do). It is a conundrum. and we can not have it both ways: wild and fully available to all is impossible. I think these are our choices: 1. Less wild and available to many is possible. 2. Completely non-wild and "fully" developed is also possible (but execrable, in my view). Regarding the original issue of whether any of these is "good business:" Choice 2. brings in the most revenue/person locally, no matter how you slice it. Granola paddlers do not use traditional lodging or eating facilities, and do not buy gear locally. Tour groups use a little more of each, but nothing like the salmon-fishing crowd or even the crab festival crowd. A series of B and B spots located every ten miles down the River would bring in the most revenue directly tied to paddlers, if paddlers would use them. I think we are really debating between 1. and 2. above. And it turns on what use, and how we manage that use, that are the issues. This is not an elitist vs populist debate -- we all make choices like this, beginning with how tall the fence will be between our house and the neighbors. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR (long-time wilderness user, encompassing the entire Northwest) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nice post and well framed description of this particular wilderness 'crux'. I'd also add another layer to the Wilderness Pays consideration. Backpacking saw a similar boom a few years ago, as has all 'wilderness travel/use' activities (and outdoor & 'extreme' sports). In the wake of this rise is the lifestyle and ancillary marketing of 'activity-like' products, including publications. Backpacker Magazine routinely publishes articles about how to find hard to find places and triumphs these under very sexy headlines, such as "10 Best Spots to Find Solitude!". No, really. And every time a 'local' sees their spot 'go up on the list' there is much local gnashing and wailing. What defines 'solitude' then undergoes a lowering of expectations through a repeated experience process. It's a conundrum when backpackers preach No Trace, and then don't consider the origins of their fancy gear (who sews it and where in the 'global economy), or the impact of an ancillary lifestyle that leads to further destruction of habitat, etc. We can't ALL live on the Front Range or along the Sunshine Coast. Most activity associated places retain their 'primary look and feel' when access requires effort and skill. Remove the barriers and the primary attraction morphs into a mere 'former of its shadowy self' (if you'll pardon the language switch). Retain the barriers and the spot tends to retain more of its primary elements. Part of the crux here is the charge of a 'populist' vs. 'elitist' mode, a bifurcation that has been cast in many different modes (especially regarding land use in the American West....as has already been noted in this List). Many argue that removal of barrier implicates a wider audience, and thus gains or converts many to the cause of preservation...a delicate balance, which sometimes sacrifices a few spots to save many (or surrenders many to save a few). And let's not forget that for many, money and privilege also afford access and often in the place of skill or experience. Sea Kayaking (like rock climbing, WW Kayaking/Canoeing, etc) has undergone an extreme bump in numbers over the past 10 years. This leaves a bigger footprint with each step. When we go out on a paddle, we add to that foot print. Left, right, center, etc, our feet all leave their marks: the tundra we step on does not benefit from our ability to articulate a political argument. Dave's post does a nice job of raising some of these issues for our consideration. It's good to be reminded that our individual and collective wake(s) do not just disappear behind us as we go. -w *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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