Ally, I've been using a Garmin GPS V for about a year and a half for both driving and paddling. I would not recommend this unit solely for paddling as it's expensive and has features which are not needed in a kayak ("Turn left after the next sea lion..."). That said...some observations: If you buy a Garmin unit, I would recommend getting the Map Source software. Being able to save tracks and look at them on a computer screen is half the fun for me. It's also much easier to plan a trip. The Map Source software isn't great (OK, I'm a programmer so I'm a bit picky), but it's reasonable. The problem with the system I have is the lack of a removable storage cartridge on the unit and the small amount of on-board memory (19 MB). I would never again buy a unit without some sort of removable storage. This problem is especially annoying given that one cannot download waypoints/routes/maps individually. The download process is via low-speed serial port(!) and takes about 45'...amazingly clumsy from a technology company. I don't use Garmin's marine navigation software as it is expensive, not rated very highly by reviewers and the Garmin base map already contains shoreline features for coastal areas and inland waterways. Although this unit is advertised as waterproof, I always keep it in a dry case. I think the most important issues for your intended use are: -battery life (mine seems to be good for about 8 hrs on NIMH batteries -whether the unit can either hold all of the maps you need or has removable storage so that you can carry additional maps. -ruggedness and ease of use while underway -mapping capability if it's in your price range -WAAS-enabled (improved accuracy) You may also wish to investigate the Pocket PC and Palm-based systems from Maptech. Maptech's charts are great, but these systems are more complicated and expensive...maybe too much so for kayaking. (You can also plan trips using MapTech's PC software and download the waypoints to a Garmin (and other) units. Have a nice trip! Jeff jkayak_at_sopoint.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This is incredible how much information all of you have on this topic... Since a few of the emails it has come up I will give a little more details of our intended use... We have multiple compasses (one on each of our kayaks, a small hiking one you wear as well as one that sits on maps so you can orient it to the map in order to figure out what direction to head in. If we were paddling Cape Cod or even Boston most of the time this would be enough for us to do a trip. But Maine in August is prone to fog. I have yet to go on a morning paddle without the fog as my view for a few hours. Because we are going for a week and the fog can last many hours into the day(or even all day) we will be using the GPS so we stay on course. We will have our map handy as well as our vhf radio which we can tune into the weather. At home we already have Topo USA on the computer to mark out our path as well as come back and map out where we went and the times... so really we need it for the core purpose, but the "extras" make the diffrence as well since in the future I'm sure we will upgrade along the way as newer units come out with more and more features!! *Ally "Evan Dallas" <Evan_Dallas_at_notes.ntrs.com> wrote: >>>>>Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:39:07 -0400 From: "Ally Pike" <ally_at_thepikes.org> Subject: [Paddlewise] GPS unit I would love to hear about the GPS units that some of you use and what you love and hate about it.<<<<< I won't comment on specific units, but on key features, based on my previous GPS's: -- Built-in electronic compass: I thought this was a cool feature initially and one of the reasons I bought my current GPS, but I've been disappointed in the accuracy. Generally it needs to be almost exactly level to work and even then the electronic compass can be off by 20 degrees or so. I generally take the bearing from my gps and then use my much-more-reliable deck compass to navigate -- Waterproof: someone correctly pointed out the problem with the "waterproof" claim for the eTrex. I also had this problem, but unless I'm mistaken, leaky battery compartments is a problem with virtually all "waterproof" GPS's, not just the eTrex. I use the suggestion of another list member (from a year or two ago) and use _good quality_ electrical tape to seal the battery compartment and since then I've had no leakage (even though I don't use a waterproof bag for it). -- Downloadable maps: VERY nice for kayaking and, imho, well worth the extra money -- Built-in altimeter/barometer: This is another feature I thought was pretty nice, since if you want (at least on the Garmin Summit) you can turn off everything else except the barometer and keep a log of changing barometric pressure to potentially predict changes in weather/storms. Yeah, it's potentially a nice feature, but you can usually get better and more reliable weather info from your weather radio. However, if you plan to also use your gps for hiking, I'd definitely recommend this feature. I'd also suggest thinking through how you expect to use it. Do you expect to have it on most of the time, say to log your path, keep track of average speed, using most of the special feature (or even just for "entertainment") etc? Or do you plan to mostly use it just to get a bearing or figure out where you are? Depending on your answer, you may not need a really high end unit. Evan Dallas Woodinville *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 24 Jul 2003 at 16:30, Ally Pike wrote: > But Maine in August is prone to fog.[...] > really we need it for the core purpose, but the "extras" make the > diffrence as well since in the future I'm sure we will upgrade along > the way as newer units come out with more and more features!! I bought a GPS in 96 or early 97 and find that I very rarely use it. Since I always have a map and compass, that suffices until exceptional circumstances arise. Only once have I used the GPS for establishing my position - the map I had was too poor a scale for locating us on a long, straight shoreline and I wanted to be sure. While the features of the newest GPS units are nice, I'd have to agree with Alex. With my aging eyes, maps on a handheld GPS are useless. I'd suggest buying a very basic GPS that will allow you to establish current position and the bearing to a desired position. Forget the maps, electronic compasses, barometers etc.* Use the GPS to establish your course in the fog and then turn it off. Use your deck compass while paddling. If you get nervous, turn on the GPS and confirm your new position and any corrections to the course, if required. Mike *Don't get those things in a wristwatch either. With the money you save by getting a basic GPS and watch, buy a weather widget - those little electronic things with wind speed, temp, barometer etc. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>I bought a GPS in 96 or early 97 and find that I very rarely use it. >Since I always have a map and compass, that suffices until >exceptional circumstances arise. Only once have I used the GPS for >establishing my position - the map I had was too poor a scale for >locating us on a long, straight shoreline and I wanted to be sure. Ack, that's quite hard core. I agree one should always head out with the dead tree version of the map, and a compass, but pre-planned (and input) waypoints can more than make up for lack on onscreen map detail. In fact it's those paper maps that give me the waypoints, that I input. Then on the trip, it's much more convenient than pulling out the map and interpreting yet again for a fix. With the GPS, is very easy to maintain situational awareness at a glance with reference to your waypoints, and one doesn't have to stop paddling or use hands if it's lashed to the deck in front of you. But whichever of the two (or other methods) you choose as primary, it's seldom a good idea to rely on just one primary navigation tool anyway. Something, eventually goes wrong or unexpected. Electronics fail, or nature deprives you either of your map, or of the ability to see the landmarks required to make use of the map. Paper references are always valuable, be they maps, or reference books. I just find that they get used more frequently when in a more convenient electronic form (be that a GPS, or an electronic reference carried in a PDA). I certainly know just for one example that I make FAR more use of tide tables, and current charts now that I have all of North America on my Palm PDA in the form of TideTools, than I ever did in paper form. It's cheaper, less tedious, faster to use, less prone to reading/interpretation errors, and more convenient to carry. >Use the GPS to establish your course in the fog and then turn it off. >Use your deck compass while paddling. If you get nervous, turn on >the GPS and confirm your new position and any corrections to the >course, if required. A couple points on that however. Especially in FOG, the issue is that one is traveling in a fluid medium, the same as when I'm behind the control yoke in the air. Heading does not equal course. You need to be able to verify via reference to fixed references that your magnetic set heading is keeping you on the intended course. In fog (or in clouds when flying) you're generally denied this ability. Even on a clear day, you're limited in this manner by the proximity to the references. At a great distance they can fail to alert you to cross-drift. The objective I think should be to maintain situational awareness so that you don't *get* nervous. When the anxiety goes up, mistakes happen. One's sense of the time is skewed, one tends to second guess otherwise obvious facts and decisions, and tends to get sloppy with procedures. Here, a tool like a GPS excels in displaying not only heading, but track made good, and rate of progress towards fixed references which may not even be visible. Further it provides a bread crumb trail, should you need to abort and return from whence you came. Be that because it's a known safe route retreating from worsening conditions, or because someone or something has fallen behind. While it can succeed at getting you out of trouble, it excels better at keeping you out of trouble in the first place if used more frequently. But in order to perform those functions well, the GPS needs to remain on. Sporadic position fixes with GPS (or map and compass) is fine if conditions allow your Mark I eyeballs to be your primary navigation aid, but fog, or even intermittent or partial fog (sometimes even worse) tends to preclude that. </rambling off> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ally, I use the Garmin Etrex Legend with built in maps and Nav Aids. It has gone swimming with in surf and has survived, although I now keep it in a dry bag. The Garmin Map 76 is also a very good unit for on the water use with a bigger display and better waterproofing. The one time I really needed it, I had not taken it with me. I was leading a 14 mile round trip coastal paddle and it was a very bright sunny day when we launched. The NOAA forecast was for more of the same. We landed at our 1/2 way point for some food at a beachside restaurant and when we returned to the boats an hour later, fog had come in which limited visibility to about 50 feet. The fog stayed with us for the entire paddle back. My co-host and several others had GPS receivers with them, but that did nothing to calm my nervousness. I intensely dislike not having all of the information at hand to make navigation decisions. My GPS goes with me everywhere now, no matter how short the trip or how clear the weather. Trying to navigate by compass and the sound of the shore break in fog ain't easy. Good luck on your trip---I'm jealous. Steve Holtzman Southern CA If we were paddling Cape Cod or even Boston most of the time this would be enough for us to do a trip. But Maine in August is prone to fog. I have yet to go on a morning paddle without the fog as my view for a few hours. Because we are going for a week and the fog can last many hours into the day(or even all day) we will be using the GPS so we stay on course. We will have our map handy as well as our vhf radio which we can tune into the weather. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>The problem with the system I have is the lack of a removable storage >cartridge on the unit and the small amount of on-board memory (19 MB). I >would never again buy a unit without some sort of removable >storage. This >problem is especially annoying given that one cannot download >waypoints/routes/maps individually. The download process is via >low-speed >serial port(!) and takes about 45'...amazingly clumsy from a technology >company. Hmmmm, I download edit/archive and upload my routes/waypoints via my PDA, and it never takes that long. More memory would be nice but the PDA works around that. I owned several Garmin units over the years but currently use the III. I normally have my waypoints and routes maxed. So I keep sets of data on the PDA, and upload what I need to the Garmin from my Palm PDA. It's also easer to view and edit the data on the PDA than on the Garmin. I have yet to need mapping that much but, at the moment I find it less expensive to use mapping software on the PDA side (cable tethered to the Garmin for the data feed). I use three different software packages depending on if I need highway level country wide detail, another for address level city detail and route finding, and another for aviation use (which can retrieve maps real-time for where I'm at with aviation level detail over a wireless connection). On the GPS side I just need a dependable affordable unit with Garmin's good interface, and a pre-programmed route. I don't like to limit myself to one particular set of map data hence I'm not yet sold on relying on the internal mapping of a particular GPS. Course now Garmin's got a another variable in the mix now that they're finally shipping their GPS PalmOS PDA combo unit, but that's a lot of non-weather resistant hardware to consider taking outdoors. For the most part I have no issue with the serial connection on GPS's. 90% of the time, you're only using it for the 4800bps NMEA data feed. USB would just needlessly complicate connections with PDA's etc. But for certain one would think better use of USB1.1 or 2.0 would be in order for map uploads. And now that Garmin is licensing SD slots for their PDA's anyway, perhaps it would not be cost prohibitive to add an RS-MMC or Mini-SD slot to a GPS for maps. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Hmmmm, I download edit/archive and upload my routes/waypoints via my PDA, > and it never takes that long. The performance problems are with the the maps not routes and waypoints. For instance, the detail street maps for New York City and the near suburbs exceed the memory of the unit. If one were to take a long trip, the choice is to download detail maps for a point of origin and destination, leaving the middle of the trip to the base maps which only contain major thoroughfares. This means that the big promise of automatic re-routing, and being able to locate addresses is not realizable with the current hardware limitations unless one takes along a laptop and downloads a new set of maps at every restroom or fuel stop. The other half of this problem is that the map set must be completely replaced each time any new map is desired. What is needed is a "Hot--synch" conduit which would allow for downloading only maps which are not present on the GPS unit. However, these limitations don't affect paddle-usage as severely since one is dealing with a smaller geographic area and the base-maps have a decent amount of coastline detail. The Garmin iQue Palm-based product shows promise, but I agree that if may not be rugged enough for kayaking. It is also the first version of this type of product for Garmin, so there will most assuredly be glitches and bugs. But the real lesson as I see it is that prospective buyers cannot afford to believe manufacturers grandiose claims. It is always necessary to look into the details of exactly what it would be life to use the product for one's intended usage. Rgds, Jeff *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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