Look out, many words... "A minimum volume cockpit is nice in theory and for those who get their kayaks custom made for them" You can reduce the volume of a boat that isn't custom made.If you have had a real world, cold, troublesome rescue, perhaps you do this, so as to have everything going for you. "Most who don't have a day hatch want to be able to carry water, extra clothing, rain hat and other items they want handy somewhere in the cockpit and are frustrated by cockpit pods and minimum volume cockpits." A minimum volume cockpit doesn't prevent a reasonable amount of cockpit storage. Doesn't a sea sock make access to things stored in the cockpit a little difficult? (My inexperience with sea socks is showing). "I'm for doing what ever works best for the situation." OK, why wouldn't a fixed outrigger rescue be improved by a hands free pump? You have your hands available to refit the spray skirt, get ready for recovering the paddle, composing yourself. You could use a foot and hand pump together, and get the bail out done quicker. "tell me where I can buy "good" foot pumps that don't have these problems and can that empty the cockpit as fast as a stout hand pump." My foot pump is set up like the description at http://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/ (search for newsletter #35, at "The Old Sea Dog's Locker) It empties the boat in around 10 minutes, from a full flood. That's a long time to pump, and sure you can cramp or get sore feet. You can also probably suffer similar difficulties hand pumping. With the usual amount of water in the cockpit after a re-enter and roll, the pump out takes about 6 minutes "and do this easily while I also concentrate on paddling and bracing with water sloshing side to side in the cockpit." You're setting the barrier too high if we are comparing hand pumping and foot pumping. Hand pumping cannot be done easily while paddling and bracing. Foot pumping can at least be done while paddling, hand pumping practically cannot. "Sea socks minimize the cockpit volume more than most bulkheads." Have you ever had a sea sock come off with the spray skirt? How secure are they? How do you access the cockpit storage? "With them I don't need no stinking leaky hatches filling up the kayak with water where I can't get to it behind the bulkhead." Well, build the bulkheads properly and use VCP hatches. Airtight. "I don't have a bow hatch spraying water into my glasses with every wave when beating into steep head sea either." I have never noticed this to be a problem. Spray comes from all directions, not usually avoidable, and not just from a hatch cover. "Please read the Flotation manual on our website..." Your website articles are great. Together they are one of the best guides to paddling and rescues. Why don't you put them in a book? I am prepared to write an addendum about hands free pumps. "I find it a lot more convenient to load a few big buoyant dry bags" Do you restrain these in any way? If not, could they cause problems by moving, either with the paddler in the boat, or coming free and even escaping the boat if the paddler is elsewhere? Reaching forward to clip in restraints for the forward bag could be awkward. "The outrigger stabilizes you at a time when you have been shaken by a capsize.." Good point. Paddling away while pumping away at the foot pump gets you warm and in control. "I wonder if you have ever tried using a fixed outrigger paddle float in rough conditions?" Not as rough as Steve's example, but I have played with a fixed outrigger in 15+ knots, and 1-1,5 metre breaking chop, rough enough to be plenty unstable for a boat full of water. I am not going to argue that it's not good to have the paddlefloat outrigger as a possible recovery, but why not incorporate a hands free pump with it? "tried hand pumping in rough conditions without a fixed outrigger[?]" Yes, without much success at all. Try one handed sculling with the paddle behind the neck, and pump with the other. Really silly. Sliding the hand pump down the tube of the skirt is troublesome to sensitive body parts. Shoving it down the front of the cockpit and grabbing it with your knees is a circus act. "A standard assisted T was almost impossible, until we incorporated the paddlefloat re-entry with it." Re-reading this, I am unsure how the paddlefloat re-entry was incorporated with a T rescue. Did one paddler self rescue with a paddlefloat fixed outrigger, and another stand by to raft up and help stabilise on the other side from the paddlefloat? Actually, Matt, reading your response here, I would like to try a sea sock at some stage. But the main disadvantage of a sea sock seems, to me, to be that you can't use a foot pump with it! How about a design for a super sea sock, with built in electric pump? Cheers, PT. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Peter Treby" <ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au> wrote: >>>>>>I can't help weighing in and recommending a minimum volume cockpit, so the boat can be paddled while flooded, and a hands-free pump, notwithstanding that some list subscribers may immediately fall asleep at the mere mention. People usually prefer to have the same old problems, rather than cope with the change required for a new solution.<<<<< A minimum volume cockpit is nice in theory and for those who get their kayaks custom made for them so the front bulkhead can be their footbraces and pump mount that is fine and good. most folks in the U.S. don't by a custom kayak from the builder they by one that has the versatility to fit a wider variation in paddler size which also seriously compromises the options for a handy foot pump. Most who don't have a day hatch want to be able to carry water, extra clothing, rain hat and other items they want handy somewhere in the cockpit and are frustrated by cockpit pods and minimum volume cockpits. "All I can figure is that few people ever practice pumping the kayak dry after reentering it." What do they do, paddle around in a cold bath after re-entry? I suspect they go to shore and dump out and practice another reentry method. If you pumped out once you know it is a lot of effort and dumping out can be justified by how many more rescues you can practice. >>>>>"If more did practice this, there would be an even stronger argument for hands-free pumping systems. (Or dry boat re-entry techniques)" Exactly right, IMHO. I find it nothing short of amazing that Matt, having come up with a cutting edge hull shape, avoids bulkheads in preference for bags and sea socks. Bulkheads allow both minimizing the cockpit volume, and fixing a foot-pump on the forward bulkhead, or an electric on the rear. The stress riser argument against bulkheads doesn't hold if the bulkhead is relatively thin and slightly less than tight fit. Matt, have you ever had a boat with a good foot pump? All this clowning around with a fixed outrigger and hand pumping can be avoided.<<<<<< I agree, I'm for doing what ever works best for the situation. No, I have never tried a "good" foot pump and all the ones I have tried were slow, awkward with my size 12's and resulted in my foot or legs cramping before I got the boat pumped out. Does no one else have these problems with this system? Please tell me where I can buy "good" foot pumps that don't have these problems and can that empty the cockpit as fast as a stout hand pump. and do this easily while I also concentrate on paddling and bracing with water sloshing side to side in the cockpit. Sea socks minimize the cockpit volume more than most bulkheads. With them I don't need no stinking leaky hatches filling up the kayak with water where I can't get to it behind the bulkhead. I don't have a bow hatch spraying water into my glasses with every wave when beating into steep head sea either. Please read the Flotation manual on our website for examples of paddlers who got into trouble with various flotation systems. I'm not a big advocate of the stress riser argument but unless the bulkhead is very flexible it does exist and can occasionally cause problems as I believe Doug recently attested to. personally, I find it a lot more convenient to load a few big buoyant dry bags through the cockpit than a lot of smaller bags through a hatch (especially through the usually smaller bow hatches). I used to try to sell electric pumps. Both failed, one for the customer and one shorted out to the case in the showroom. I fastened them to the seat rather than a rear bulkhead. They were relatively expensive and few in Seattle bought them. it doesn't take long to set up a fixed outrigger and get back in the kayak (unless you want to clown around rotating around like a spider (or dog) before settling down into the cockpit). The outrigger stabilizes you at a time when you have been shaken by a capsize and may capsize again while paddling and bracing with a cockpit full of water while you take your knees off the knee braces to foot pump out the kayak and deal with any cramps or Charlie-horses that result. >>>>>>>I should add that I usually take a paddlefloat, for the certainty of a paddlefloat re-enter and roll. But I'd try everything else before resorting to it. And hand pumping is a joke in rough conditions that have caused a capsize. Far better to paddle away while pumping. A good near-death experience from time to time might lead to a re-evaluation of the false comfort of carrying a paddlefloat and a hand-pump. Reading this over, it sounds a little strident, but so does Matt. Cheers, PT.<<<<<< Certainly nothing beats not capsizing in the first place and the Eskimo roll is so far ahead of whatever is in third place that is where I'd advise one concentrate their efforts if they want to paddle rough and challenging conditions. I wonder if you have ever tried using a fixed outrigger paddle float in rough conditions? your comments would lead me to believe you have tried hand pumping in rough conditions without a fixed outrigger. I would agree that is a joke and is likely to look like a comedy of errors (if it wasn't such a serious situation) Regarding suitability in rough water, Steve seems to also be disagreeing with you when he recently wrote on Paddlewise: "Although I don't do it exactly as you developed it (I use the "CA way" of starting behind the paddle shaft), I have found this re-entry works extremely well. I have done a lot of practice with it, and had the "opportunity" to use it in 25 knots with 11 foot breaking swells. A standard assisted T was almost impossible, until we incorporated the paddlefloat re-entry with it. Everything worked well then and what could have been a tragedy bacame nothing more than a story to share." Fixing the paddle to the deck is the key that makes attaching the spraydeck and hand pumping easier in rough water. Obviously, fixing the paddle to the deck wouldn't be the best technique in most surf. I recommend other reentries then. Once in the surf pumping or dumping out the kayak is probably unnecessary it the shore is nearby. Depending on what that shore looked like you would either paddle in to it or paddle out beyond the surf zone before worrying about the water in your kayak. The "Rescue Float" manual on our website goes into detail on how and when I recommend using a paddlefloat as an aid. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Instead of pumping the boat out after a paddlefloat rescue, there is another technique using the paddlefloat that can help empty the boat prior to starting the re-entry. 1. Put the float on the paddle and inflate it. 2. Straddle the paddle between your legs or place it under one of your arms with the paddle float behind you. 3. Using the paddlefloat for additional support you can grab the bow of the boat while leaning back, scissor kick and push straight up with one or both arms. This will usually allow you to both break the cockpit seal with the water, and drain the boat assuming it has a rear bulkhead. 4. As the boat comes down, pivot it so it is right side up. 5. Perform a standard paddlefloat re-entry. This is the technique that I would usually use unless the water was so cold that a couple of minutes more immersion would result in hypothermia. I have practiced this technique in both flat water and not so flat water of 4 - 5 foot swells. It works as long as the paddler as sufficient upper body strength to lift the boat. Total time is usually much less than a standard paddlefloat re-entry and pump out. Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt said (mega-snip): >I agree, I'm for doing what ever works best for the situation. No, I have never tried a "good" foot pump and all the ones I have tried were slow, awkward with my size 12's and resulted in my foot or legs cramping before I got the boat pumped out. Does no one else have these problems with this system? < Oh yeah, pretty much; I once dumped purposefully in some very heavy air-sea conditions (well out beyond the surf zone). By the time I got back in the cockpit, and back upright, I was feeling a wee bit wobbly (tide was outgoing, so was less than a perfectly controlled lee-shore situation) and had a hard time relaxing. I figured if I had a wider kayak, then perhaps I'd have felt a bit more stable; but then it occurred to me that there would be more water sloshing about (this was a non-paddlefloat rescue practice day for me). Perhaps some day I'll have to try an A/B test. Anyway, foot-pumping eventually went well, but I must admit that unless one has a fairly large cockpit, a lot of the pumping action isn't all that ergonomic. Again, with the smaller volume, narrow kayak, I got the water out in a reasonable time frame. If the kayak had been of larger volume, then I would have had to pump longer and maybe cramped up, though it would have been easier to find a more natural pumping-action, so I don't know. Foot pumps aren't the be all and end all, but I do think they have an appropriate place in lower-volume kayaks with small-footed folks for those who have thought through the pros and cons. I attempted the experiment again a few minutes later to simulate a subsequent capsize, as this can and does occur in real-life self-rescue scenarios. I definitely cramped up the next time through the test. It was much easier to just paddle the swamped kayak. I headed to shore, dumped the boat, and went out one more time. After a quick re-enter and roll, there didn't seem as much water in the cockpit. Paddling was easier. I headed out to deeper and more dangerous water, and actually had a good time. Turning the swamped boat was a huge chore though, especially in the windy breaking whitecaps. The bracing requirements were split-second, and this turned out to be a great way of practicing. I think it was the following year I had the incident off Trial Island. Once back in the kayak off Trial, it was so rewarding to have the confidence and wherewithal to paddle back through a wind-swept tiderace because of prior training and experience. And yes, my legs were hopelessly cramped by then (though I'd have given the foot pump a try if the seat-cushion hadn't wedged up against the bulkhead after dislodging). I also doubt I'd have been much good with a hand pump either. I can see why the Aussie's like their electric pumps. But it is all personal choice. Matt, myself, Peter, or anyone else can only share opinion and perhaps experience. I can pontificate on one point that we all maybe miss once and awhile: Especially in rough-water solo-rescue scenarios, it can be very exhausting and taxing on both one's mental and physical reserves. As simple as most rescue techniques are, with the complexities of on-water wind/wave dynamics, compounding problems, permutations with gear-failure and failed expectations -- it is good to note that thinking in an exhausted and/or worried state is something most of us have not practiced. As a survivor of a number of incidences over the years, all I can say is please think through your rescue strategies, get a few workable ones down pat, and keep yourselves out of trouble in the first place (preach it ye hypocrite :-) ). The resources mariners depend on aren't always there these days, what with government cutbacks in every nation. One really need's to be self-sufficient on their own or with their mates, whether in Canadian, Australian, U.S. waters, or wherever. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have been teaching sea kayaking, and the paddlefloat rescue, for over ten years. In the beginning I taught the paddlefloat rescue pretty much as per the instructions with the Mariner paddle float. As the years went by my fellow instructors and myself have attempted to refine the technique, as well as our methods to teach it, so as to convey the virtues of the paddlefloat rescue to the masses in the best, simplest, and most productive manner. The result has been what Mr. Broze has described as the "California Method." But it has been a number of years since I have actually taught the fixed paddle method as the primary technique. No doubt my understanding of the technique, as well as my teaching skills, have improved over the years. So with this latest discussion of Paddlewise about the two apparently opposing techniques I decided to retreat to my laboratory and conduct some experiments. Saturday I had two classes, one in the morning and one in the afternoon, in which I would be teaching groups of novices the paddlefloat rescue. I decided rather then teach the rescue in the benign conditions of the harbor, I would instead take each group out into the ocean beyond the protective breakwaters. As luck would have it there was a good wind blowing and things were fairly bumpy in the ocean. The first group I taught the fixed paddle method first. After they had struggled with that for a while I then showed them the "California" method. interestingly most of the paddlers continued struggling with the fixed method even after being shown the Calif. way. It became very apparent that despite my earlier post in which I stated that the fixed paddle method requires very little in the way of technique and skill to perform, as the conditions deteriorate and become rougher technique suddenly takes on a whole new meaning - it becomes VERY important. The second group I taught the Calif. method first, which would involve the paddlers crawling over their boats like spiders, as Mr. Broze describes it. After they had a chance to work on that a bit I then introduced the fixed paddle method. Once this group had a chance to try the fixed paddle method, most of them went back to the Calif. way of doing it. The biggest difference here was that while the first group never did really learn the Calif. method, the second group not only learned the Calif. way, but was able to much more easily pick up the fixed paddle method as well. A few observations here; in the rougher seas most of the people had considerable difficulty getting the paddle with the float on it under the rear deck bunjies. As the boat was bouncing around, as was the paddle with the float out on the end of it, they had problems trying to hit the moving target. One person never was able to accomplish this and I eventually had to go over and put the paddlefloat under the bunjies for them. All of this meant that the paddler was required to spend an additional amount of time in the water while they attempted to set up for the rescue. Once the paddler managed to get back into their boats the fixed method did provide a more secure situation for the paddler to pump the boat out. However the paddlers who were using the Calif. method did not seem to have all that much difficulty pumping out by either holding the hand pump between their knees while their free hand continued to lean on the paddlefloat for support, or by bringing the paddle with the float on it in front of them and across their laps so they could lean on it with an elbow and use both hands to work the pump. All paddlers were able to completely pump their boats out without any difficulty using a hand pump. About half the paddlers who were practicing the fixed paddle method capsized a second time while trying to remove the paddle with the float on it from behind the deck after they had pumped the water out of their boats. This test proves nothing. I was not attempting to prove anything. I was just experimenting because some questions had been raised in my own mind with the recent discussions about the paddlefloat rescue on this list. While I might find the fixed paddle method easier to do then the Calif. style, this is not about me. This is about what is the best, most productive method with the highest success rate to teach to novices. While I very much respect the work Mr. Broze has done with the paddlefloat rescue, I am still not convinced that the fixed paddle method is the better way. Each method has it's strong points, just as each method has it's weaknesses as well. I have some further experiments in mind which I would like to try if and when the opportunity presents itself. In the meantime I will continue to do what works. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter Treby wrote, At 09:54 a.m. 26/07/2003 +1000, Peter Treby wrote: >Matt, have you ever had a boat with a >good foot pump? All this clowning around with a fixed outrigger and hand >pumping can be avoided. >I should add that I usually take a paddlefloat, for the certainty of a >paddlefloat re-enter and roll. But I'd try everything else before resorting >to it. And hand pumping is a joke in rough conditions that have caused a >capsize. Far better to paddle away while pumping I am amazed and surprised, to see all the comments in this issue. Certainly I don`t have the authority of many old experienced kayakers and instructors but the few thousand rolls and rescues made during more than two years trying to learn to be self sufficient have carried me to try almost everything. Right now I can roll with confidence and I am able to speak with a certain degree of veracity since I have swallowed more sea water than many here. I have reached to some conclusions during the discussion. 1.- There are several solutions to the rescue after a wet exit. 2.- None of them is the ultimate solution, and some work to some and some work to others, and it will depend on the paddling conditions, which solution is the best. 3.- We owe to Matt Broze the basic, fundamental, great development of the paddle float rescue technique, but things evolve, and giving the adequate recognition, we must agree that over a great idea, other ideas also come to improve things, and that is the progress of mankind. 4.- The solutions will depend on people abilites and tastes. Examples. I have seen guys using the paddelfloat rescue, placing the paddle behind the cockpit and being so skilled, they donīt need to to tie the paddle and spend some minutes in cold water. Others place it under the bungies and others have devices to hold the paddle. On the other hand if one has a foot or electric pump, it doesnīt matter if he reenters and rolls or uses the paddlefloat rescue technique. 5.- Among the preferences, some people, (like myself) prefer to get out of the water as soon as possible, and avoid hanging the legs towards the unknown depths and therefore prefer to use a paddlefloat reentry and roll and then spend more time pumping, using the cockpit as an outrigger support, even in medium rough waters. I have described it in detail and really works. Just place the free blade under the cockpit thigh brace and hold it with your leg, while pumping. 6.- Some people really do prefer climbing up behind the paddle outrigger and some in front. I have practiced both and I donīt really think it makes that big a difference, as long as I slide my legs in with my belly on the deck and then turn around. To me it is easier to do it climbing over the coaming (in front of the paddle) like in Matt`s manual. 7.- Climbing with the paddlefloat rescue technique in 25 knott (not mph) winds and 11 feet swell, is far too much for me. I admire Steve for that. Under my specific conditions of climate, boat stability, etc.. I teach Mattīs technique, and encourage people to try different varieties, keeping Mattīs as the basic. For myself, I preferred when missing rolls the paddlefloat reentry and roll, and the under coaming-outrigger arrangement for pumping, but... I am very respectful of all other approaches presented here, and would love to use Peteīs approach if I could get a hold of a foot pump or electric pump. Best Regards, Rafael el cayucochief www.mayanseas.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/28/2003 4:42:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au writes: > Look out, many words... > > > A minimum volume cockpit doesn't prevent a reasonable amount of cockpit > storage. Doesn't a sea sock make access to things stored in the cockpit a > little difficult? (My inexperience with sea socks is showing). Yes. It either sits on your lap, in a deck bag, or is stored semi-permanently behind the cordura curtain. If it is on your lap it can or will be lost if you bail out. A deck bag will be subject to the stress of surf. Behind the cordura curtain makes it dangerous to access in many boat designs, particular if the seas are up and you are not rafted up (IMHO). I adjust my kit for sea sock usage. I bag my water and carry it in a pfd mounted hydration bladder. The risk is the amount of weight should I deign to roll, but it isn't that big of a deal. The deck bag I carry is fastex buckled to my deck lines and is a very low profile watershed, but not the one they sell as a deck bag. I think that one is too big, even. Leon Somme told me his chart clipped to the deck lines caught the full force of a boomer and stripped his deck lines from the boat. clean deck anyone? Or at least make the deck bag quickly removable. > "tell me where I can buy "good" foot pumps that don't have these problems > and can that empty the cockpit as fast as a stout hand pump." > My foot pump is set up like the description at > http://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/ (search for newsletter #35, at "The Old Sea > Dog's Locker) It empties the boat in around 10 minutes, from a full flood. > That's a long time to pump, and sure you can cramp or get sore feet. You can > also probably suffer similar difficulties hand pumping. With the usual > amount of water in the cockpit after a re-enter and roll, the pump out takes > about 6 minutes 10 minutes? Yikes! I think those were the ones Matt was talking about ; ). The Henderson on my former boat was about 35-40 percent of that, though I'm pretty big and that boat was low volume. I have an Attwood D Cell on my Nordkapp Jubilee and it takes about 5 minutes. I do agree with Matt that I had to unhook a knee to make a foot pump work on the former boat. I also find the size 12's are uncomfortable in that position but they survive multiple practice attempts fine. > > Have you ever had a sea sock come off with the spray skirt? How secure are > they? How do you access the cockpit storage? No. The Feathercraft version I have has a neoprene lip and is quite secure. See above for retrieval of necessities. > "With them I don't need no stinking leaky hatches filling up the kayak with > water where I can't get to it behind the bulkhead." > Well, build the bulkheads properly and use VCP hatches. Airtight. > "I don't have a bow hatch spraying water into my glasses with every wave > when beating into steep head sea either." > I have never noticed this to be a problem. Spray comes from all directions, > not usually avoidable, and not just from a hatch cover. > VCP and NDK hatches are extremely dry. The Jubilee version of the nordkapp has them recessed and they do not kick up spray. The Khatsalano does throw spray but the roll up hatches have never leaked on me. > > Actually, Matt, reading your response here, I would like to try a sea sock > at some stage. But the main disadvantage of a sea sock seems, to me, to be > that you can't use a foot pump with it! How about a design for a super sea > sock, with built in electric pump? > Cheers, PT. The only scenario I could see for this working is a Lendal LV foot pump or a lightweight electric with the outtake sewn into the sock and the intake suspended high enough to not suck fabric. A reinforced area on the footwell would have to be able to provide stability for the pumping or the mounting of an electric. Then again, none of my experiences with a seasock would warrant it. They seemed to not take in much water and standard dumping gets it out quick. Water taken in by reentry is quickly taken out by a hand pump with the stability provided by a buddy rafted up. Interestingly, When one is seated in a seasock the vaccum pressure of the cockpit is usually sufficient to hold the fabric in place for reentry, though not always. They are not the be all and end all, but > > Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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