Dave asked (snip): >Having been a pretty avid white-water and coastal kayaker as a teenager...I have recently purchased a Perception Acadia Expedition...Anyway, over the last few weeks I've gotten myself to the stage where I'm managing paddles of about two to three hours, but I'm then finding myself running into a brick wall in the energy stakes...was wondering if you could point me to a website (perhaps) that explains the most efficient (and least taxing!) style of stroke. I'm using what I would call a fairly vertical sort of style (lifting the "dry" paddle high in the air and over towards the centreline) which seems to give me more thrust from the blade in the water, but this is fairly physical sort of stroke...< Dave, Can't remember if you got much of a direct reply to this; I placed your question in my drafts and waited for other more informed replies -- then forgot it. I'd recommend the last issue of Sea Kayaker magazine (August 2003) which had a fairly comprehensive overview of the forward stroke from three different perspectives. Get it while it is still on the newsstands. To me, a good stroke has three basic elements: Torso Rotation, Reach, and co-ordination -- the latter being merely the smooth combination of the previous two. Whitewater literature often breaks down the paddle stroke into three phases: the entry, the power phase, and the recovery. By breaking the stroke down into four separate phases, an efficient stroke can be thought through easier. The four phases are: The Catch, The Pull, The Exit, and The Recovery. Depending on paddle length, the catch is simply when the power face of the blade first digs into the water. Placement into the surface of the water should be right in-line about where your footrest is located. I prefer a little more forward if I'm hell-bent, and even further if I'm running from Lucifer (or just training, doing rest and recovery "laps."). Blade angle should be as perpendicular to the center-line of the boat as possible. The real forward movement comes from proper pulling power using as many muscle groups as you can. To do this correctly, there has to be torso rotation (from hips), a steady pull of the arm (but not overdoing it on the biceps which isn't efficient), and some leg extension. Good foot bracing is a must for the latter. An efficient exit starts just before the hips. I tend to release the blade a bit too late, but that's just the way I'm geared or perhaps the fact that I've found a good glide is easier to maintain with continuous momentum which a late exit promotes if done well (and one isn't geared for the vertical stroke). Just use a bit of sideways motion as you exit with the lead edge of the paddle blade so as not to lift water. The recovery is at the horizontal point and I tend to make a fairly snappy move to the other side (though nothing like the racers, who amaze me with their high-stroke rate and just plain high, vertical stroke. I learned to paddle with a longer shaft/overall paddle length, big blades, low open-water style. Efficient or not, it works fine for me. If and when I want, I can revert to a more vertical stroke, but can't maintain it indefinitely. As for nutrition, that's a good question. Duane Stoker who does long crossings is a carb-man. I'd tend to agree. Hydration is the biggest issue for me. My "paddling-machine" can't run on dry. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave wrote >I'm using what I would call a fairly vertical >sort of style (lifting the "dry" paddle high >in the air and over towards the centreline) >which seems to give me more thrust from the >blade in the water, but this is fairly physical sort of stroke...< Doug wrote >I learned to paddle with a longer shaft/overall >paddle length, big blades, low open-water style. >Efficient or not, it works fine for me. If and >when I want, I can revert to a more vertical >stroke, but can't maintain it indefinitely. G'Day Dave, Doug and Paddlewise, That sounded like good advice and useful web references. To add a minor additional point of view. The vertical stroke doesn't have to be more wearing. I use a light, short, large blade paddle, with a vertical stroke applied with much less vigour than for racing. For me this requires considerably less energy and produces much less muscle stress than a low angle (open water) stroke. It allows me to sustain many hours on either flat or open water between about 1m to 2m sea. Different strokes for different folks (It had to be said:~) All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter said: > G'Day Dave, Doug and Paddlewise, > > That sounded like good advice and useful web references. To add a minor > additional point of view. The vertical stroke doesn't have to be more > wearing. I use a light, short, large blade paddle, with a vertical stroke > applied with much less vigour than for racing. > Right. Most of my more serious paddling friends (as in the paddling part) have moved toward this shorter paddler mandate that's "sweeping" the globe." :-) I've tried this too but couldn't get used to the "tighter" paddling style required in confused seas. I figure when and if I make a big change to the status quo, it'll be with a Greenland stick, which is a whole other world of stroke mechanics, etc. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC (where water bombers have been flying around all day putting out fires; wish I was off kayaking instead of re-insulating the attic, like real hot man!) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave, Drink before you get thirsty, use a drink tube so you drink often (about every 20 minutes) and eat around 250 calories (mostly carbs) per hour. Exercising 5 to 10 hours per week really helps the endurance too. On trips, I like to have my water bag under my legs, with the drink tube coming up through the sprayskirt tube and jacket neck. The water bag makes for a nice leg pillow, and I can move it (2 1/2 gallons) around in the cockpit to help adjust the forward and back, as well as side to side trim of the kayak if I didn't load it perfectly. Just be careful about cockpit entrapment issues. See Doug's article in SK about that. Duane > ...As for nutrition, that's a good question. Duane Stoker who > does long crossings is a carb-man. I'd tend to agree. Hydration is the > biggest issue for me. My "paddling-machine" can't run on dry. > > Doug Lloyd > Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Never learn to use a paddle with unfeathered blades... Very dangerous when >if out at sea the wind picks up. OK for soft inland paddlers perhaps, who >stay within their depth so they can walk to shore if they see ripples on the >water ;-) Matter of opinion, I'd guess. Some of us use Greenland paddles almost exclusively now. Not much feather there to be sure. I don't mean to "dis" the modern technology of feathered paddles (nor the bent shafts or wing blades for that matter), but the kayak and its tools have been around a lot longer than these late (albeit useful) inventions. Lot of us even used the unfeathered "modern paddles" for years without any major mishaps at sea. Too many folks take a rather immovable stance on such matters ;) Tom *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Keith wrote >Never learn to use a paddle with unfeathered >blades... Very dangerous when if out at sea >the wind picks up. OK for soft inland paddlers >perhaps, who stay within their depth so they >can walk to shore if they see ripples on the >water ;-) G'Day Keith and Paddlewise Oh Keith!!!!Mate!!!!Let me be one of the numerous innocent fish to rise to this bait:~) Surely the advantage or disadvantages of feathered vs unfeathered would depend on whether you're paddling into the wind, or with the wind on your beam. Isn't a feathered paddle with a beam wind a bit of a nuisance? Also wouldn't any sensible paddler, having anticipated the risk of finding themselves in excessively strong winds, make sure there was an alternative plan to get out of the wind or to run with it? (Unless they wanted a work out). Or carry a sea anchor and ride it out (something I've never done). Have you ever put a feathered paddle down on the sand in a bit of a wind and watched it blow away? Wouldn't happen to an unfeathered paddle (at least not as easily). All the best, PeterO (Who lives in Sydney NSW Australia where the wind is fairly predictable over 24 hours) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Keith said (snip): >A friend and myself almost circumnavigated Rona and Raasay (West Coast of Scotland) in a day a few weeks ago, but had to get off the water after 12 hours because the wind blew too strong for us to make headway, up until that point we were still paddling well over 5 knots...< 12 hours at 5 knots? That's pretty good. What kind of kayaks were you paddling? Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thinking about it I may well have got the units wrong, the GPS readout was in kph and read above 5 kph most of the time. But speed over land is not always the same as speed over the water of course. Anyway - we hadn't planned to do a three day trip in almost one day - it just happened that way! For the second half of our paddling day it was very calm and glassy smooth water and the boats were travelling well, 6-7 kph at times. The boats themselves were from Valley, I was in a Pintail and my companion was paddling a Nordkap HM with the fixed skeg. He'd only just aquired this boat and we were interested to see if he'd be a lot faster than myself in the Pintail! The Pintail has more rocker and its quite manouverable for a sea kayak with the skeg retracted and yet tracks well with the skeg down. It also handles rough water very competently.... which is important to me! While not the biggest boat in the fleet - I can normaly carry enough kit for a 2 week trip in the hatches, but that is about its limit. My mate had previously been paddling an NDK Romany which we'd found to be a little slower than my Pintail. As it turned out the difference in speed of the boats wasn't an issue - I was able to keep pace with the Nordkap without any problem. This may have had something to do with relative fitness of us both on the day and the fact that I had a variable skeg system and could trim the boat to the prevailing conditions easily - which could not be done in the fixed skeg Nordkap. If you are interested - I can remember our start and finish times so I could always work out our average speed by referring to the chart. We are actually planning a long sea crossing of about 16 hours, and we were interested to find how we felt - and after 12 hours of paddling. As it turned out we were quite fresh and felt we could have handled another 4 hours without undue stress... I guess an efficient forward paddling style is quite useful! Keith ...... Original Message ....... On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 20:35:30 -0700 owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net (PaddleWise) wrote: >Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Some basic questions for a (re)-beginner > >Keith said (snip): >>A friend and myself almost circumnavigated Rona and Raasay ( >12 hours at 5 knots? That's pretty good. What kind of kayaks were you >paddling? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
News wrote: > Thinking about it I may well have got the units wrong, the GPS readout was > in kph and read above 5 kph most of the time. But speed over land is not > always the same as speed over the water of course. Anyway - we hadn't > planned to do a three day trip in almost one day - it just happened that > way! For the second half of our paddling day it was very calm and glassy > smooth water and the boats were travelling well, 6-7 kph at times. > >>12 hours at 5 knots? That's pretty good. What kind of kayaks were you >>paddling? You're not reading that unit as "knots per hour" are you? Knots is nautical miles per hour, so 7 knots per hour for 12 hours is 84 knots. The unit kph is kilometers per hour, at least on my GPS. Knots is kt. 7 kph is 3.8 knots, a reasonable touring pace. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve Cramer <cramersec_at_charter.net> wrote: >> You're not reading that unit as "knots per hour" are you? Knots is nautical miles per hour, so 7 knots per hour for 12 hours is 84 knots. The unit kph is kilometers per hour, at least on my GPS. Knots is kt. 7 kph is 3.8 knots, a reasonable touring pace.>> Yeah, I agree. "kph" has got to be kilometers per hour. When I am lazing along I do 3.0 knots. Full cruise is 3.5 knots, which I can maintain all day. Four knots is really pushing it in my cargo barge (Eddyline Wind Dancer), and I can hole that only for bursts. Greg Barton could do better ... -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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