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From: Michael Edelman <medelman_at_ameritech.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] folding times
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 22:03:33 -0400
--- alex <al.m_at_3web.net 
<http://us.f804.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?To=al.m_at_3web.net&YY=70593&order=down&sort=date>> 
wrote:

 >> Only the most gifted (there are some in this
 >> newsgroup) can assemble Kahuna in 20 minutes.  I
 >> normally do it in 30-35, because have to check and
 >> re-align keelsen and chines to make them coincide
 >> with outer reinforcing strips.  Not in a rush, but
 >> who and why would do this in a rush *every* time
 >> when he wants to paddle?


Because practice is what allows so many to do it in 20
minutes

When I first got my 1997 K-1 it took nme anywhere from
45 minutes to an hour to assemble it. I started
rigging up my  roof rack to carry it assembled, but I
was never satisfied with carrying it that way. So I
kept assembling every time I went paddling.

And you know, now I can do the K-1 in 20-30 minutes.
The newer boats are much faster as you don't have the
cordura deck or seperate frame pieces to deal with. I
suspect with practice I could do a Kahuna in 15 or
less without rushing.

A lot of people spend over an hour assembling
Kleppers; I have a tape of Mark Ekhart assembling his
Mk-II in 17 minutes while narrating it. He tells me he
can do it wiithout narrating in 12.

For that matter, I'm sure there are people who take a
half hour to assemble an Aleut. I can usually put that
one together in as much time as it takes others to get
there kayaks off the roof rack and secure all the straps!

===== mike
--------------------------
Michael Edelman
mje_at_spamcop.net
http://foldingkayaks.org
http://findascope.com




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From: PeterO <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au>
subject: [Paddlewise] Kahuna - first impressions
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:28:35 +1000
G'day,
	I have long wanted to try a Kahuna to see if it met the ideal of a boat
that can readily travel by public transport, cope with reasonable sea
conditions and be easy to assemble, disassemble, dry, clean and store. So
yesterday I picked up a demo boat and today tried it out.

Public transport
	No problem - very nice - effectively an average size and weight suitcase;
including clothing, PFD etc

Coping with sea conditions
	The wind was blowing 20 to 30 knots - the boat handles well with wind
although the one I was using did have a small skeg attached. It was stable,
wonderfully easy to turn with no tendency to weathercock. I was paddling on
the spot for much of the time, however, and noone was going out to sea
today! I have doubts as to how this boat would handle in greater than 2
metre sea. One concern was the sponson valves which were very poorly fitted,
leaky and could come away easily, maybe this was because it was a demo boat.
I decided to clamp the inflation tubes between the sponson and the side
bars. Perish the thought of undoing the sea sock in a 2 metre sea and a 20
knot wind to repair and blow up the sponson system.

Comfort
	The most comfortable seat I've ever used - I did have a sheepskin fleece
between the seat and sea sock though. Found it hard to know where to put
stuff, food drink etc. Its OK on flat water where you can undo the sea sock,
but at sea?

Drying, cleaning and storing
	Very impressive. The sea sock comes into its own. After leaviing the boat
the interior was already dry and the whole boat was dry within the time it
takes to drink a beer, (carefully controlled test:~). It could be cleaned
with only a damp wet cloth - an important consideration in drought affected
Australia.

Assembly
	The booklet instructions were clear, the lever system works very well. For
a while the boat seemed easy to assemble - UNTIL I GOT TO THE LAST NOTCH ON
THE LAST STERN CROSS RIB - It took me an hour and required extreme strength
to get the bar into position on the crossrib. So much so that I would say it
was hazardous to tendons and hands. As far as I could tell everything was
lined up. What is the trick/correct technique here? Or are these boats
variable in their ease of assembly?

I'm going to assemble and take it out again tomorrow - overnight advice
would be greatly appreciated.


All the best, PeterO










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From: ralph diaz <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kahuna - first impressions
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:36:08 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: "PeterO" <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au>

> metre sea. One concern was the sponson valves which were very poorly
fitted,
> leaky and could come away easily, maybe this was because it was a demo
boat.
> I decided to clamp the inflation tubes between the sponson and the side
> bars.

The valves tend to be fine, so it may be as you suspected . . . a problem
with a demo boat.  But in all cases with sponsons, it is worthwhile doing
wat you did with the inflation tubes in some form.  I generally just bend
them over so that the tube crimps and then I shove the whole thing in behind
a gunwale to hold it bent over.

> between the seat and sea sock though. Found it hard to know where to put
> stuff, food drink etc. Its OK on flat water where you can undo the sea
sock,
> but at sea?

That is the curse of using a sea sock.  I don't use one for that reason
among others, i.e. getting at essentials inside the cockpit.


> Assembly
> The booklet instructions were clear, the lever system works very well. For
> a while the boat seemed easy to assemble - UNTIL I GOT TO THE LAST NOTCH
ON
> THE LAST STERN CROSS RIB - It took me an hour and required extreme
strength
> to get the bar into position on the crossrib. So much so that I would say
it
> was hazardous to tendons and hands. As far as I could tell everything was
> lined up. What is the trick/correct technique here? Or are these boats
> variable in their ease of assembly?

Assembly varies from individual boat to individual boat of the same model.
Regarding that mating of the crossrib with the notch or tabs in the gunwale
bar, many boats do not have a problem but some do.  The technique to get
around the almost impasse you had is the following:

When wiggling the crossrib into position, make certain that the gunwale bars
ride up on the top surface of the cross rib rather than fall down to the
sides below where you need to make the connection.  If you look at the
crossrib you can see that the slope of the top of the crossrib is at a more
shallow angle or pitch than is the side of the crossrib.  So when it comes
to getting the bar to fall into the notch on the crossrib, it is easier to
manuever the bar into the notch from the top of the crossrib rather than
from the side where you have to come up a sharp angle.  Give this a try.
Also, you can do some of the manuevering into position by pushing the bar
from the outside of the skin.  Again, many boats do not have the problem but
some do.

ralph diaz
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 1365, Highland, NY 12528
Tel: 845-255-7742; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: PeterO <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Kahuna - first impressions
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 19:26:13 +1000
Ralph wrote
>When wiggling the crossrib into position, make
>certain that the gunwale bars ride up on the top
>surface of the cross rib rather than fall down to the
>sides below where you need to make the connection.

G'Day Ralph, Elias and Alex,

Ralph, your advice worked superbly - Once I used your method, that step in
the assembly became effortless and only took a minute compared with
yesterdays 1 hour. The assembly time today, while checking the instruction
book every step of the way, was half an hour at a very leisurely pace. That
time will easily drop to 20 minutes or less. Feathercraft could usefully
change their instruction book to incorporate your method.

Elias, I'll try the clamp idea and you were right the valves stayed on
during todays 40km trip, although the sponsons were pretty flabby by the
finish.

Alex, I think I might go back to a mesh deck bag as you suggest. The sea
sock works for me in that by keeping the interior dry  the total drying time
is greatly reduced - though I like the idea of waiting for a bit more beer.
just as well I'm using public transport:~).

I took it out again today and for the first 30km found I could paddle it at
4.5 mph, which is slightly faster than the hardshells I've tried including
Pittarak, Raider X, Squall. The last 10km my speed dropped to 4mph which was
about the same as the hard shells. I was very suprised and pleased.

Manoeuverability and tracking were great and the skeg didn't seem to be
necessary

I've heard back channel that the Kahuna can handle 2 to 4m sea. I'm totally
convinced of the Kahuna's strength but wasn't sure about how such a light
and quite small boat would handle in those sorts of seas. It was very
obvious yesterday that it performs well in strong wind.

I am very impressed with the boat and thanks to everyones feedback will
almost certainly buy it.

Thank you again! All the best, PeterO


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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kahuna - first impressions
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 03:51:15 -0700
> Alex, I think I might go back to a mesh deck bag as you suggest. The sea
> sock works for me in that by keeping the interior dry  the total drying
time
> is greatly reduced - though I like the idea of waiting for a bit more
beer.
> just as well I'm using public transport:~).

I thought I suggested a dry vinyl bag, but mesh bag or net will work as
well.  I've read about using a net instead of bungy cords on hardshell
kayaks, and the owner told it was very secure, he never lost anything.  He
threaded cords along all 4 sides of the net, so as to make net sides always
pressed against the deck. It may not work that well on a folding kayak. Here
is a vinyl deck bag that I was talking about:
http://www.boundarywaterscatalog.com/browse.cfm/4,2959.html (it has small
mesh pocket in front, otherwise it's all-vinyl).  Weighs more than a pound.
Alex.

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From: PeterO <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] net vs vinyl bag - was Kahuna - first impressions
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 06:27:56 +1000
Alex wrote,
>I thought I suggested a dry vinyl bag,

G'Day Alex,

Sorry it was the vinyl bag you suggested. I've tried a bag that looked very
similar. Do you know if the one advertised has any tendency to leak when
submerged? The one I tried was capacious and strong but tended to leak and
could fill up with significant amounts of water after rolling the kayak.
Since then I've had a preference for not keeping anything on the deck but am
comfortable with a net bag when necessary, the commercial ones are
functional, secure, but not strongly made and are overpriced. Mostly I store
food on deck and put safety gear in a waterproof pack in the back pocket of
my PFD.

All the best, PeterO


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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] net vs vinyl bag - was Kahuna - first impressions
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 21:23:50 -0700
> Sorry it was the vinyl bag you suggested. I've tried a bag that looked
very
> similar. Do you know if the one advertised has any tendency to leak when
> submerged?

Manual says "splash-proof" , not water-proof, and I've looked at it in a
local store. The only access is trhough the zipper on the front vertical
wall, it is covered with flap, of course it will leak when submerged.  And
if it leaks I donno how it is better than those nylon waist
wallets/pouches/bags or whatever people call them.  I 've seen this Sealine
bag for $70  and  another $40 bag which is also too much. Any nylon bag will
do. I'm using skiing/biking waist bag simly because I have it and it's easy
to buckle around the perimeter line. Carries water flask, sandwich in a
ziplock, couple of apples, sunscreen etc.

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From: John March <jsmarch_at_acpub.duke.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] net vs vinyl bag - was Kahuna - first impressions
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 00:58:46 -0400
At 09:23 PM 9/28/2003 -0700, alex wrote of Sealine Baja:
>Manual says "splash-proof" , not water-proof, and I've looked at it in a
>local store. The only access is trhough the zipper on the front vertical
>wall, it is covered with flap, of course it will leak when submerged.

Not even splash proof--waves breaking over the foredeck will result in 
water in the bag.  With the caveat that nothing goes inside that can't get 
wet, the principle virtue of the Baja is that it is easy to access and put 
away stuff unlike bags that are really waterproof.




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From: ralph diaz <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Kahuna--- Was Re: Kahuna - first impressions
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 08:57:06 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: "PeterO" <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au>

>
> Ralph, your advice worked superbly - Once I used your method, that step in
> the assembly became effortless and only took a minute compared with
> yesterdays 1 hour. The assembly time today, while checking the instruction
> book every step of the way, was half an hour at a very leisurely pace.
That
> time will easily drop to 20 minutes or less. Feathercraft could usefully
> change their instruction book to incorporate your method.

It is something that I found out after much trial and error.  But, it is
also possible that in the first video they ever had when the K-Light (the
Kahuna predecessor) came out that it was shown the way I mentioned.  I do
have the video but I recently moved from NYC and do not have my TV and VCR
set up quite yet to check this.  In any case, that first video and that
first assembly was with a "doctored" boat, i.e. the skin to frame fit was
extremely loose.  I did see it at the shop and was amazed.

Doctoring boats for demonstration purposes probably crosses some ethical
borderline which I confess I have done myself.  When I was given the
opportunity back in 1993 to appear at McGraw Hill's international marketing
meeting when the 1994 new books were being announced (including my Complete
Folding Kayaker), I jumped at the chance.  The publisher wanted me to
assemble a kayak while they went through the paddling and marine titles.  I
knew I could not afford to hit any snags.  The K-Light had just come out and
I really didn't know it well; so I decided to take in a Klepper Scout, the
2000 which assembled like other Kleppers.  It was however a generally hard
boat to assemble at the time (they later eased the skin to frame fit so that
it wasn't so vexing).  I went to Dieter Stiller the US importer and laid the
problem on him.  The found a demo whose frame had been used and a fairly new
skin that had been stretched some by being on display in the showroom.
Dieter then went around to every fitting and applied a little grease plus
fiddled with a light hammer to make certain all the rivets were just right
and every thing absolutely in line.  I went to the McGraw-Hill meeting and
was able to assemble the Klepper 2000 in under 10 minutes with no snags!

>
> I've heard back channel that the Kahuna can handle 2 to 4m sea. I'm
totally
> convinced of the Kahuna's strength but wasn't sure about how such a light
> and quite small boat would handle in those sorts of seas. It was very
> obvious yesterday that it performs well in strong wind.

Just another word regarding the Kahuna.  It is quite a bit stronger than the
K-Light because of the use of the telescoping bars not just at the keel but
also the chines and gunwales.  They have done some other beefing up here and
there.

ralph diaz

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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kahuna - first impressions
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:16:55 -0700
> Found it hard to know where to put
> stuff, food drink etc. Its OK on flat water where you can undo the sea
sock,
> but at sea?

I'm not using the seasock, but just too lazy to undo the skirt any whenever
I need something. Solution is to use a deckbag (Sealine Baja deck bag is OK,
if $60 is OK to you).  Any old waist pouch is OK too, provided it's big
enough.  I'm using pretty big skiing (or is it bike?) waist pouch, buckled
to the fore deck. Zipper isn't waterproof, but food is in ziplock anyway.
Those Sealine bags seem to be pretty waterproof, with flap above the zipper.
Made of vinyl and a little but heavy.

> Very impressive. The sea sock comes into its own. After leaviing the boat
> the interior was already dry and the whole boat was dry within the time it
> takes to drink a beer, (carefully controlled test:~). It could be cleaned
> with only a damp wet cloth - an important consideration in drought
affected
> Australia.

In mild temps of Pacific Northwest and if there is no sun it would take a
bit more beer.  About 4-6 hours, and *dry* sponge will be needed to remove
the water that remains between the hull and lower side of the sponson,
especially if it was rinsed inside with a freshwater (which is plentiful
here, ulike the sun). I have found the skin softer and easier to assemble
again after I have washed it in a fresh whater, btw.

> Assembly
> The booklet instructions were clear, the lever system works very well. For
> a while the boat seemed easy to assemble - UNTIL I GOT TO THE LAST NOTCH
ON
> THE LAST STERN CROSS RIB

Don't have this problem, but mine is Big Kahuna, with cockpit ribs farther
apart (fore rib is farther for sure, but don't know whether aft rib is in
the same location same as yours.
Alex.

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From: Jeff <jkayak_at_sopoint.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Kahuna - first impressions
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 20:49:24 -0400
Peter,

Just a couple of additions to the excellent suggestions you've already
received. 

Regarding the stern large crossrib: I lie it flat toward the stern, align
the keel and chine notches and pull it up toward me making sure (as Ralph
suggested) that the gunwale bars are resting on the cross-rib above the
notches.

Also, using two thumbs on the bar and the fingers on the cross-rib for
leverage, seems to lessen potential damage to the fingers when sliding the
bar down into place.

I would suggest taking apart the keel and seat-sling bars for rinsing after
each use. I've had a couple of instances of these bars seizing up due to
salt deposits. 

Although I must admit to worrying about the sponson valves leaking, during
two years of extensive use it has never happened. I keep them curled
underneath the seat-sling.

I second what Alex said about rinsing salt off the skin if possible.

If the skin skin becomes tight, while packed away, wetting it prior to
assembly will loosen it up. I'm not sure whether beer or water is best for
this purpose... :<)

Regards,
Jeff
jkayak_at_sopoint.com

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