Greetings, My boat is a Prijon Seayak, 16'x23", equipped with a rudder. This is my first experience with a rudder and I'm having second thoughts on whether to leave it in place. As I am landlocked, the ocean is not my playground. Most of my time is on medium size lakes and rivers. The wind here in Wyoming can become most impressive, however, the Seayak seems to handle it well until it becomes extreme. Recently, while practising rescue tactics I discovered the rudder, in it's upright position, to be an impediment to a swimmer trying to mount my after deck. If this were taking place in rough water, I am concerned with it again being in the way. I have not worked with this boat yet in towing practice, but I can see where that may also have some issues for a rudder equipped boat. Finally, the rudder rigging is definitely an obstacle when lashing gear to the after deck as well as accessing the rear hatch. I've only used the rudder a few times primarily to get the feel of it. Several times I have paddled the Seayak on a lake with 2-4' short period breakers but did not use the rudder as I'm not used to having one. The kayak performed quite nicely without it. It does weathercock when unloaded, but corrective strokes and edging get me through. I wanted a rudder primarily as a rescue device in the event I was caught in a nasty and needed the tracking assistance. Seemed like a nice device to fall back on when tired from fighting confused waters. I would be interested in comments regarding rudders and rescue techniques, self or assisted. I'm thinking the disadvantages of having the rudder present may outweigh the advantages of it's use. At least, in my paddling reality. Thanks to all. Holmes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Holmes wrote: - >I'm thinking the disadvantages of having the rudder >present may outweigh the advantages of it's use. G'Day, A problem with some rudders I've found is that you are obliged to use them if there is a decent wind, because leaving them undeployed they catch the wind. I'm in process of moving over to skegs to see what they are like in the surf. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You'll get strong opinions on this, including mine: I think rudders are a liability on kayak, with the possible exception of long doubles. Aside from the problems you mentioned of getting a swimmer on the stern deck, towing, and gear lashing, there are others: -They get in the way when trying to empty the boat on the beach -They are something on your friend's boat that can damage you boat or your boat when he gets surfed into you. I'm terrified of having a ruddered boat in a rock garden with me. -It encourages sloppy boat control technique unless you religiously avoid using it (So why have it?) -As another paddler pointed out, they add to stern windage, which further encourages their use in the wind -They break, and are most likely to break in the roughest conditions -They look ugly -I hate them (Hey, you asked) Drop down skegs are a much more elegant solution. They can also break, but are much less obnoxious when they do. When not deployed they essentially don't exist except for the reduced packing area in the stern compartment. Also, except for the fact that they can be retracted, they are consistent with traditional kayaks which often had small fixed skegs. An even better solution is a boat that doesn't need either. And can both turn and track well. Vickie and I have recently bought Mariner Elan and an Express with the hopes of achieving that. So far, so good, but the real test will be storm weather this winter. I'll let you know. With all that said, I would think twice about removing the rudder from your SeaYak. My first closed cockpit boat was a used SeaYak with a buggered up rudder. I just removed it rather than fix it. The boat handled like a dream with no wind and was quite manageable up to about 10 knots cross wind. By 15 knots I was wishing I had the rudder, and by 20 I was considering swimming rather than paddling. Edging the boat only helped to a point, and then after that it just made matters worse by increasing rocker. Some boats are more manageable than others. At the same time period, Vickie had a Necky Narpa that had only mild weather cocking. Removing the rudder would have brought it near zero. What I didn't try with the SeaYak was moving the seat back, and frankly I can't even remember if that was possible. In most boats shifting the weight back can reduce weather cocking significantly, even to the point of inducing a weather vane condition if you load a heavy gear load too far astern (from your email it sound like you know that). I would check all this very carefully before removing it, including high cross wind with short fetch (no waves). The no wave situation can sometimes be much worse than the one you described. Steve Brown Original message: Greetings, My boat is a Prijon Seayak, 16'x23", equipped with a rudder. This is my first experience with a rudder and I'm having second thoughts on whether to leave it in place........... ....... I would be interested in comments regarding rudders and rescue techniques, self or assisted. I'm thinking the disadvantages of having the rudder present may outweigh the advantages of it's use. At least, in my paddling reality. Thanks to all. Holmes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Steve Brown [mailto:steve_at_brown-web.net] > Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 8:57 AM > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Re-thinking a rudder > > You'll get strong opinions on this, including mine: > I think rudders are a liability on kayak, with the possible exception of > long doubles. > Aside from the problems you mentioned of getting a swimmer on the stern > deck, towing, and gear lashing, there are others: > -They get in the way when trying to empty the boat on the beach > -They are something on your friend's boat that can damage you boat or your > boat when he gets surfed into you. I'm terrified of having a ruddered boat > in a rock garden with me. > -It encourages sloppy boat control technique unless you religiously avoid > using it (So why have it?) > -As another paddler pointed out, they add to stern windage, which further > encourages their use in the wind > -They break, and are most likely to break in the roughest conditions > -They look ugly > -I hate them (Hey, you asked) Actually, I appreciate the forthright comments. > What I didn't try with the SeaYak was moving the seat back, and frankly I > can't even remember if that was possible. In most boats shifting > the weight > back can reduce weather cocking significantly, even to the point > of inducing > a weather vane condition if you load a heavy gear load too far > astern (from > your email it sound like you know that). I recently removed the poorly designed backrest and replaced it with a WW style IR band. Much better. The factory seat pan could be moved back 1.5-2" but better yet would be the construction of a custom seat/back/hip pad assembly and forgo the factory pan altogether. This would allow me to vary the position up to 5" aft of the current location. I'm going to remove the pan tonight and place a 1/2" minicell square so I can experiment with seat positions this weekend as the fall winds are here. > I would check all this very carefully before removing it, including high > cross wind with short fetch (no waves). The no wave situation can > sometimes > be much worse than the one you described. Interesting you should mention the short fetch/cross wind scenario as I have been puzzled by this at my small practice lake. I was used to it when paddling canoes but did not expect it in a kayak. Since the time of icy waters is just around the corner here, I'm going to leave the rudder in place as a safety device. I can keep the rudder buttoned up while I experiment with seat positions and get started on the new seat construction. The various photo sites displaying customised sea kayak cockpits intrigue me and I want to try my hand at it. My thanks to you and all others for the input. Holmes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>I think rudders are a liability on kayak, with the possible exception of >long doubles. >Aside from the problems you mentioned of getting a swimmer on the stern >deck, towing, and gear lashing, there are others: >-They get in the way when trying to empty the boat on the beach >-They are something on your friend's boat that can damage you boat or >your >boat when he gets surfed into you. I'm terrified of having a ruddered boat >in a rock garden with me Cheese and rice, now rudders are a "liability"!!!! Give me a break already!!!! Just out of curiosity perhaps you can explain to me why a rudder is a "liability" on a single and not on a double? And just how is the rudder any more of a "liability" when your friend surfs into you then is your friends total lack of boat control and skill? For that matter the kayaks pointed bow is a "liability" as well. Perhaps what we really need is kayaks with blunt padded bows! >-It encourages sloppy boat control technique unless you religiously avoid >using it (So why have it?) Excuse me but just how does having a rudder on your boat "encourage sloppy boat control technique" any more then does a skeg? If you aren't skilled enough to handle a boat without some sort of crutch then you aren't skilled enough to handle the boat without some sort of crutch. >-As another paddler pointed out, they add to stern windage, which further >encourages their use in the wind I personally have never found the rudder to create all that much windage despite the popular urban myths to the contrary. >-They break, and are most likely to break in the roughest conditions I used a ruddered boat in some very extreme conditions for fifteen years without ever experiancing a failure. While I'm sure it can happen, I have experienced numerous failures with skegs (they got stuck with gravel in them which I could not clear from the cockpit on the water). So what? Paddles break, boats break, I don't think that rudders are any more susceptible to failure then any of the rest of our equipment. >-They look ugly Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For the record I have absolutely no preference between rudders, skegs, and the purist approach with nothing at all. Discussing this is, I feel, is something akin to debating which is the better flavor of ice cream. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> -----Original Message----- >On Behalf Of Melissa Reese > > Discussing this is, I feel, is something akin to debating > which is the > > better flavor of ice cream. > > Godiva Belgian Dark Chocolate (no rudder, no skeg...just chocolate). > Melissa, You obviously are a girl after my own heart. I do use a skeg though--is that sort of like a sugar cone with the Belgian Dark Chocolate? Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott wrote: - >I personally have never found the rudder to >create all that much windage despite the popular >urban myths to the contrary. G'Day Scott, Urban myth sounds a bit strong. It surely depends on the boat, the rudder and the conditions. If on choppy or rough water then there are so many options for controlling a kayak that the stern windage of some rudders may not be a nuisance. But try paddling a Klepper on flat water with the rudder undeployed and a stiff beam wind, say 15 to 20 knots and the urban myth will become a sad fact. I'm using the Klepper as an extreme example, it surely has the biggest rudder in the world and it can be quite handy sometimes. But I've noticed several other boats with the same characteristic. Can't say much about skegs as I'm still waiting to have my Pittarak fitted with one. Reason I'm changing is to surf bigger following seas. I'm told Pittaraks tend to broach in seas bigger than 2m and the rudder is hardly in the water at all under those conditions so for the moment I'm keeping my paddling to seas less than 2m. Hope skegs have improved since your problems with pebbles. Regarding the crutch analogy, sure a skeg or a rudder can be a 'crutch', but they can also be a walking stick. If you're going for a 10km walk in the park you probably don't need a walking stick, but for a 50km hike across rough terrain in unpredictable weather, it could help conserve energy. Same with kayaking. I found yesterday there was a limit to how many power bars and bananas, a skinny underweight guy can eat on a long paddle. Maybe Godiva Belgian Dark Chocolate would be better. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > > For the record I have absolutely no preference between rudders, skegs, and > the purist approach with nothing at all. Discussing this is, I feel, is > something akin to debating which is the better flavor of ice cream. > Moose Tracks With out a doubt! michael *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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