The way I have seen and experienced Pepper spray , its very easy to keep the stuff out of you lungs. Its just "painted" on you face. This is not pleasant but its far better than breathing the stuff. Pepper and Mace cause an involuntary response in/on your body. If you breath the stuff into your wind passages, they will be inflamed. Depending on the person you might want to throw up but can't. Or you might actually throw up. You will be in pain. There is no way around that fact. But dealing with pain varies with different people. This does effect your breathing to some extent. Depends on the exposure and person. Even if the stuff is not breathed in, you still will have issues.... Once you are hit with pepper or mace, your sinus cavities are going to be emptied. No real pleasant. Unless you have a flu or cold. Pepper spray will cause your eyes to shut. This is a good thing. Open eyes hurt. Closed eyes hurt less. Even after having a water hose connected to ones eye balls there still is pain and you want you eyes closed. Closed is good. This lasts for 30-45 minutes. Then you take a shower and it reactivates for more fun.... 8-) Pepper Spray with a content of 5-6% is all that is needed for two legged critters. Higher percentages just increase the Time In Pain. The spray should be an alcohol base not water. Pepper is an oil. Oil and water don't mix. Alcohol and oil will mix. Don't use around flames. NYPD use some Pepper spray grenades on a barricaded suicidal subject a few years ago. He was in a small room and even after the enduring the massive amounts of spray he still would not come out. They tossed in flash bangs. This is usually good. But since the guy was covered in spray aka alcohol this was bad. He let up like a torch..... Don't use spray around flames. Pepper spray does not guarantee an attacker, 2 or 4 legged will stop. Even a 12 gauge does not provide that kind of guarantee. But the 12 gauges does provide much better odds. Even if pepper spray does not stop an attacker it should at least diminish their capabilities. I know of incidents where cans of spray have been emptied on people and they still kept on fighting. But at least they could not see, they where in pain, and likely could not breath at their normal capacities. Without pepper spray they most likely would have been shot. Pepper spray is a tool used to hopefully prevent more violent incidents. That is all. I would not put my life on the line with only a can of pepper spray. There was an earlier comment about a White Bear hit by multiple rifle rounds. Remember that military rounds are FMJ, full metal jackets. These are designed to penetrate a body. They are not designed to stay within the body. A bullet that fully penetrates is a danger to other people. Course in combat that is not a bad thing. But an overpenatrating bullet means tha tthe full energy of the round is wasted. This is badness if you are really trying to stop something/someone. You don't see hunters using FMJs since they want to bring down their game NOW. Not later which is why they used expanding bullets. Self defense rounds are the same. A 12 gauge with a slug has some mighty high energy levels and is an awesome self defense tool. Later, Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A WA Kayak Club member I know told me that on a (non-paddling) trip to Churchill on Hudson's Bay he had fended off a Polar Bear using a can of bear spray. The bear had come up to him when out walking solo overland . He also reported that later a bear came into the compound he was staying in and reached over onto a raised walkway from below and tried to knock someone off his feet as he walked above. No way to know if it was the same bear or not. The spray could have pissed him off, not only didn't he get what looked like an easy meal he got a lot of pain instead. maybe I'm anthropomorphizing but I like the idea of bear spray. The bears can survive and train their cubs to respect humans much like we teach our children to respect skunks by giving them a wide berth should we see one. I've spent time in Grizzly country with only bear spray for protection (and far less than that the first time--even though every Alaskan I talked to said a .338--a very powerful rifle--was the minimum one should have) but if I was going to be solo in Polar Bear country I'd take a 12 Gauge (6 to 8 shot) short barreled pump shotgun and back that up with a can or two of bear spray. I'd carry the bear spray at all times and keep the gun ready and nearby. I think I'd also try to rig up some sort of perimeter warning system around my tent so I would have a better chance of getting some restful sleep and not have my mind jumping and waking me up with each little unfamiliar noise. Maybe I could make this out of some strong nylon fishing line strung around and out from the tent that if disturbed would pull the pin out of one of several battery powered personal protection alarms that make an ear splitting noise. I have one of those alarms and they are small (3"x2"x1"), light (100 grams, under 4oz.) and relatively cheap (I think I paid 5 or 6 dollars on sale at a local sports store). Maybe the strange noise would startle and confuse the bear and distract it from its purpose. With a wailing noise like that suddenly going off next to me the cobwebs would also probably clear from my just awakened mind rather quickly. I used to take a couple of "Saturn Missiles" (fireworks in compact block about 3" on each side) when wilderness kayaking in bear country because I figured that the 25 whistling spinning missiles (each ending in a loud pop packed into about 10 seconds) would probably send anything running that was caught by surprise by the chaotic noise, coming from so many different directions, it created. I used to be able to buy "Saturn Missiles" at the neighborhood fireworks stand, but now they are illegal in so many places and I don't think you could transport them by airliner, even before 911. I never did get the chance to see if they would really work as I had envisioned. Probably a good thing I never tried it, I might just have started some huge wildfire. Though that wasn't a likely possibility on the soggy WA and BC coasts where I kayak camped with them. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 31 Oct 2003 at 19:27, Matt Broze wrote: > A WA Kayak Club member I know told me that on a (non-paddling) trip to > Churchill on Hudson's Bay he had fended off a Polar Bear using a can > of bear spray. The bear had come up to him when out walking solo > overland . He also reported that later a bear came into the compound > he was staying in and reached over onto a raised walkway from below > and tried to knock someone off his feet as he walked above. No way to > know if it was the same bear or not. One thing to note on polar bear behavior in Churchill vs the arctic - the bears are more accustomed to people. They are garbage-dump bears and nuisance bears that have become used to seeing people. There are tundra buggy bear-watching tours as well. In Churchill, the polar bears are part of the tourist trade. They may be more like rural black bears in behavior than wilderness polar bears. I don't know if bear spray would be as effective on a wilderness polar bear. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> One thing to note on polar bear behavior in Churchill vs the arctic - > the bears are more accustomed to people. They are garbage-dump bears > and nuisance bears that have become used to seeing people. There are > tundra buggy bear-watching tours as well. In Churchill, the polar > bears are part of the tourist trade. They may be more like rural > black bears in behavior than wilderness polar bears. I don't know if > bear spray would be as effective on a wilderness polar bear. The polar bears in Churchill are wilderness polar bears. The bears gather there every year waiting for Hudson Bay to freeze. As soon as the bay freezes, they are gone--usually within 24 hours. Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 3 Nov 2003 at 12:51, Steve Holtzman wrote: > > One thing to note on polar bear behavior in Churchill vs the arctic > > - the bears are more accustomed to people. They are garbage-dump > > bears and nuisance bears that have become used to seeing people. > The polar bears in Churchill are wilderness polar bears. I guess the news reports I've heard on Canadian TV and radio the last several decades are all faked then. The situation isn't as bad as in the past, it still remains that there are problem bears in the area: Quote from Winnipeg Free Press web site: <http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/travel/leisure/story/1281984p- 1525362c.html> " Nervous with excitement, we're all hoping to catch a glimpse of a polar bear, even though we know damn well that A) The great white beasts living near the town rarely visit during the summer; B) It's wrong to approach wild animals; and C) It's humiliating to visit a garbage dump to do anything other than dump garbage, and even that's a bit of a stretch. " This in August, well outside the wild bear window (Oct to mid Nov) While wilderness bears are in the majority, you can't tell them from the garbage dump bears and the latter will stick around much longer than the six-week wilderness bear window. The fact that the bears are a major tourist attraction and lots of folks are brought out to see the bears every year means that they are more accustomed t0 people than true wilderness bears. Personally, I'd not want to rely on bear spray for a polar bear. And if you're going to use a shotgun, use slugs, not shot. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Michael Daly > > I guess the news reports I've heard on Canadian TV and radio the last > several decades are all faked then. The situation isn't as > bad as in the past, it still remains that there are problem > bears in the area:..... > > While wilderness bears are in the majority, you can't tell them from > the garbage dump bears and the latter will stick around much longer > than the six-week wilderness bear window. Mike, I agree with you completely on this. I just didn't think it was accurate to classify all of the bears in Churchill as garbage dump bears who are used to people as the vast majority of them are wilderness bears that are migrating. I also agree that if you are going to travel in bear country that you need to be completely prepared. I don't think a can of pepper spray is adequate.Grizzlies are dangerous enough and they don't look at us as food the way polar bears do. Until a bear takes off his costume to reveal that it is a human dressed up as a bear, they should all be treated with respect and distance. They ARE dangerous. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 4 Nov 2003 at 7:04, Steve Holtzman wrote: > I just didn't think it was > accurate to classify all of the bears in Churchill as garbage dump > bears who are used to people as the vast majority of them are > wilderness bears that are migrating. You're correct, I should have qualified my statement better. My apologies. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I like this approach and plan to use it whenever we get around to a trip to "big bear" country. It has the potential of defusing the situation before it becomes fatal to either bear or human. One additional benefit is that it effectively creates a "back-up" system which is a good thing for any emergency procedure. We use this for dealing threatening dogs while running and walking. Pepper spray to ward of the non-serious aggression and to "train" threatening dogs. It works very nicely because dogs are relatively smart. Seems like bears fall into the same category. We carry lock blade folding knives as back-ups for serious problems. I haven't had to stick a dog yet, but have had several occasions (especially where there are two dogs) where I was spraying in one hand and had the open knife in the other just in case. A very important note: THE SPRAY DOES NOT "STOP" THE DOG" It takes a few seconds for the spray to have effect. Once it does the dog losses interest in the attack within seconds, but does not immobilize it. Before it does I am keeping the dog at bay with yelling and "looking big". The first time they seem surprised and confused, but still somehow know that I am the source of their pain. Some dogs are more docile and give me a wide birth after that. Some still threaten, but at a more respectful distance (out of spray reach). All of them learn what the spray can means after the first dousing. I haven't been pepper sprayed, but did go through tear gas training in the USMC. It was seriously distracting, but not immobilizing. Irritation to the eyes made seeing difficult-to-impossible, but everything else worked fine. It's painful, but the pain can be ignored if necessary. Maybe someone else has had pepper spray experience to share??? My opinion (having only used spray on animals much smaller than big bears): If a bear was seriously attacking and could get a hold of you before the spray took effect, you would be in serious trouble. I don't believe spray would stop a true (opposed to bluff) charge of an angry bear, or an angry dog for that matter. On the other hand if there was something to deter the bear from getting hold of you before it took effect, or if it was just considering eating or attacking you, it would likely work as accounts seem to indicate. As I've said on previous posts Vickie and I haven't been in big bear country yet, so all these opinions I have are very safe from my desk in southern CA:-) One thing I do know about first hand is shotgun shot sizes. I use #6-to-#8 shot on ducks and doves. It usually stops them on the first shot. For any bear I would start with 00 Buck shot. I have heard of using #8 as the last round in the magazine to blind the bear from close range if all else fails. I don't know if there are any living persons who have actually tried that though. Steve Brown -----Original Message----- paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Matt Broze ..........................................maybe I'm anthropomorphizing but I like the idea of bear spray. The bears can survive and train their cubs to respect humans much like we teach our children to respect skunks by giving them a wide berth should we see one......................even though every Alaskan I talked to said a .338--a very powerful rifle--was the minimum one should have) but if I was going to be solo in Polar Bear country I'd take a 12 Gauge (6 to 8 shot) short barreled pump shotgun and back that up with a can or two of bear spray. I'd carry the bear spray at all times and keep the gun ready and nearby.............................................................. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I wrote: >>>>>>...but if I was going to be solo in Polar Bear country I'd take a 12 Gauge (6 to 8 shot) short barreled pump shotgun and back that up with a can or two of bear spray. I'd carry the bear spray at all times and keep the gun ready and nearby.<<<<<<< Steve Brown responded: >>>>>>One thing I do know about first hand is shotgun shot sizes. I use #6-to-#8 shot on ducks and doves. It usually stops them on the first shot. For any bear I would start with 00 Buck shot. I have heard of using #8 as the last round in the magazine to blind the bear from close range if all else fails. I don't know if there are any living persons who have actually tried that though.<<<<<<<< I'm back from vacation. I'm sorry, I was unclear in what I said before I left. I meant a shotgun with a 6 to 8 shot magazine (not the pellet size). BTW, I'd use #8 for skeet or doves, #6 for pheasant, #4 for ducks, #2 for geese and 00 Buck shot and/or rifled slugs in big bear country. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net> wrote: >if I was going to be solo in Polar Bear country I'd take a 12 Gauge (6 to 8 shot) short barreled pump shotgun and back that up with a can or two of bear spray. I'd carry the bear spray at all times and keep the gun ready and nearby. I'd be afraid to shoot a bear with 6 to 8 shot. That's upland bird shot. You'll really piss the bear off, likely permanently maim or blind it, but you won't kill it. Dangerous and likely inhumane. Go for big buckshot or slugs, maybe alternating. That said, this really isn't a gun group, but I'd hate to see someone use the wrong size shot. I'm a gun owner, not a gun nut, I like bird hunting, do some big game hunting. I love my 12ga Mossberg pump for deer hunting, I think Rob Gibbert's recommendation for the same gun in SS with a longer magazine is great. And that said, when I'm in bear country (grizzly and black), I'd rather have pepper spray. I was in griz country a month ago on the Blackfeet Reservation helping a friend round up cows on summer pasture. He and his kids had various pistols - .357, .41, .45, and they asked why I didn't want to carry one. I wouldn't want to shoot a big griz with anything smaller than the .45, and then I'm not sure of my aim if I were shaking too badly. I was joking about it with a couple of the Indian horsemen who were also out rounding up their cows. They agreed they'd rather have a fast horse than a big gun! I live relatively near the middle of the "Great Bear Wilderness", and there are plenty of anecdotal success stories about pepper spray and grizzlies. It doesn't seem as if as many bears have been euthanized of late, either. I should think that pepper spray would be as successful on white bears as it is on grizzlies...but it's really only effective when the bear is almost on top of you--it is not a long-range deterrent. Shawn Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tuesday, November 04, 2003, at 9:54:21 AM PST, Shawn Baker wrote: > That said, this really isn't a gun group, but I'd hate to see > someone use the wrong size shot. I certainly agree that this is not a gun group, but I find the current discussion interesting nonetheless (and I don't own any guns either...never even held one). In general, I don't like even the idea of me owning/carrying a gun (and I certainly don't like the idea of having to shoot such cute and cuddly looking bears!), but with my dream to someday live in Alaska, with lots of wilderness paddling and hiking in mind, I'm wondering what advice the more experienced "bear country people" here would have for a person like myself. I've encountered Black bears here (even in my "backyard"...the dunes along the beach...and also in the hills), but whenever they see/smell me, they don't stick around very long (am I really that smelly or unpleasant to look at?! ;-)). Anyway...I'm sure that when I do finally get myself to Alaska, I'll learn as much as I can from the experienced locals, and try to do the smart thing...even if it means having to learn how to use a gun (and hopefully, never ever have to use it!). -- Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>smell me, they don't stick around very long (am >I really that smelly?! ;-)). It must be all that spicy food ;-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Melissa wrote: but with my dream to someday live in Alaska, with lots of wilderness paddling and hiking in mind, I'm wondering what advice the more experienced "bear country people" here would have for a person like myself Having lived among the Tlingits for many years here in Alaska their advice is simple. "Talk to the bear and let the bear know you are human" In other words talk and sing as you go through forest and woods letting the bear know you are coming. If you encounter a bear talk to it and let him have his trail. This might seem too simple and dangerous but remember the Tlingit have lived among the bear for thousands of years before guns and lived surrounded by bears quite well. I usually carry pepper spray only, but on my long trips, I carry a gun (a .357 mag. handgun) mostly for the noise effect. My main reason for carring one is to protect my food supply from hungry black bears. I would if need shoot over their heads or at their feet but not at them. A wounded bear is the most dangerous. If you are uncomfortable with guns then don't carry one. The problem I see with guns and some people is the bigger the gun the more macho the attitude and the more likely they will be to use it. I have seen bears shot when it was totally unnecessary. A tragedy to say the least. By the way I have been charged twice, once by a brown bear and once by a polar bear, an have survived. Also I have had numerous bears in camp you have lived to tell the tale. Above all keep your camp clean cook away from you sleeping area keep food out of the tent and keep talking to the bears Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Melissa wrote : >>>In general, I don't like even the idea of me owning/carrying a gun (and I certainly don't like the idea of having to shoot such cute and cuddly looking bears!), All this guns and grizzly stuff has me concerned about my safety in the wilderness. So, since I'm in the process of rigging the deck on a new folder, I may as well go that extra mile and mount an AK-47 on the forward-deck for an added margin of safety. PT - 47 Gunship - http://yostwerks.com/PT_47.jpg Tom *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
While I recognize that there are some places that we all might like to travel that some bear risk exists I would also suggest that going places where the risk is actually high is maybe not a great idea. First, let me disclaim I am not anti-gun, this topic is not related to that obviously volatile issue. Now let me say I am "anti-gun as self defense against wildlife on recreational wilderness trips". That of course is my opinion and I recognize some will certainly disagree. Let me suggest an approach to consider. Research chemical irritants and other non-lethal techniques as defense against bears. Research your destination and the level of bear risk. If the non- lethal options do not balance your concerns about the risk maybe you would consider an alternate destination? Shooting a Polar Bear living in it's own territory because it's natural instinct as a large predator is not convenient for you seems very wrong to me. Not to mention the whole issue of being able to actually use a gun in your defense. Trust me that having a chemical irritant handy and using it in a manner that is helpful to your situation is much more likely. I did some fairly extensive research on this topic for some work I do with a wilderness camp for teenagers. If you would prefer to do it differently be my guest, but please do what you can to avoid killing bears. Aaron *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I certainly agree with the statement "Shooting a Polar Bear living in it's own territory because it's natural instinct as a large predator is not convenient for you seems very wrong..." I am curious about what Aaron means by "I would also suggest that going places where the risk is actually high is maybe not a great idea." What constitutes a "high" risk area? If a "high risk area" is defined simply as an area with a high density of bears, then I do not agree. I have had several NPS and BLM officials who work in Alaskan backcountry tell me that virtually every night they camp out, brown bears will come around to check out their tent in the middle of the night. The bears see something unusual, so they check it out. I have had this happen to me as well. Is this a bear encounter? After all, you are sleeping only a few feet away from a bear. Is it a risky situation? I do not think so. The odds of an attack are probably less than getting struck by lightning. Bears are like any other natural condition in the backcountry, a little knowledge, good judgment, and preparedness will greatly reduce the risks. You are never going to achieve a 100% safety guarantee, nor should you expect to. I have owned and used guns since I was 8 years old. I insist on having one in my house in case of human intruders. I have actually used one to scare away one such intruder who crashed through my window to steal money for drugs. However, I have NEVER felt the need to take a gun into the wilderness when I paddle or backpack. Bears are simply trying to survive and procreate, not very complicated or unreasonable motivations. People, on the other hand, have all sorts of motives that I can never begin to understand. When I am in the wilderness I will be armed with knowledge, good judgment, and a can of bear spray. In the city, I want my gun. Dave *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I never thought of a bear standing 10 feet tall weighing over half a ton with paws twice the size of my head as cute and cuddly. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melissa Reese" <melissa_at_bonnyweeboaty.net> To: "Paddlewise" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 2:31 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Guns and Polar Bears > On Tuesday, November 04, 2003, at 9:54:21 AM PST, Shawn Baker wrote: > > > That said, this really isn't a gun group, but I'd hate to see > > someone use the wrong size shot. > > I certainly agree that this is not a gun group, but I find the > current discussion interesting nonetheless (and I don't own any > guns either...never even held one). > > In general, I don't like even the idea of me owning/carrying a gun > (and I certainly don't like the idea of having to shoot such cute and > cuddly looking bears!), but with my dream to someday live in Alaska, > with lots of wilderness paddling and hiking in mind, I'm wondering > what advice the more experienced "bear country people" here would have > for a person like myself. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/5/2003 2:27:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, revkayak_at_aptalaska.net writes: > > By the way I have been charged twice, once by a brown bear and once by a > polar bear, an have survived. Also I have had numerous bears in camp you > have lived to tell the tale. > You can't just leave us hanging here. What did you do to survive these two attacks? Tony Niilus *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> You can't just leave us hanging here. What did you do to survive these two > attacks? > In both cases the bear broke off the charge. The polar bear was in Manitoba along the shore of the Hudson Bay north of Churchill. We had paddled the North Knife River and paddled down bay to a hunting camp to await a float plane to pick us up. While carrying gear from the Bay to the lodge (about 200 yards) we saw a polar bear lying on the tundra about 30 yards away. We were walking atop a small esker and the bear was below us. We decided to let him know we were there to avoid surprise. he merely lazily looked up at us as we shouted and went back to sleep. When we went back to get our second load of gear he totally ignored us . However when we returned with the gear he suddenly jumped up and charged straight at us teeth showing and roaring. The side of the esker was covered in brush and he charge into the brush full speed. I aimed my shot gun (12 gauge loaded with slugs) at where I thought he would come out ready to fire . However once in the brush he broke off his charge and came out about 10 yards to our left and ran away along the top of the esker. Looking back at the incident I belive the bears intent was to back us off so he could escape. It just so happened that we were standing in his escape route. The other incident happened while I was living in Angoon. A young bear, 2-4 years old was our best guess, had entered the village and had raided a couple smoke houses. It was salmon season and everryone was smoking fish. People ran him out of town mostly by making noise. The problem was he ran out onto a small pennisula instead back into the woods from where he came. Disorientated and scared he became agitated. The village safety officer saw me about to take off paddling and ask me to keep an eye out for the bear. (he feared they might have to shoot it.) The tide was running in so was working the back eddies in order to head out to sea, hence I was close to shore. I saw the bear at the edge of the woods and when he saw me he charged down the beach and into the water. I was probably 25 feet out and in maybe 10 feet of water. I yelled at the bear and he ran back to the shore then at me again . Each time I yelled and he backed off. Finally after 3 or 4 charges he ran into the woods. The key to his behavior was he was later seen swimming across the channel from this beach a couple hours later at slack tide. I believe like the polar bear he was trying to escape and I was in the way. Still alive and kicking Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rev. Bob, That is the soundest and most succinct advice I have read on bears in SE AK. I really enjoy reading about your experiences and always learn from you. Thanks for the posts. > [Original Message] > From: Rev. Bob Carter <revkayak_at_aptalaska.net> > To: paddlewise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> > Date: 11/05/2003 5:16:29 PM > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Guns and Polar Bears > > Melissa wrote: > but with my dream to someday live in Alaska, > with lots of wilderness paddling and hiking in mind, I'm wondering > what advice the more experienced "bear country people" here would have > for a person like myself > > > Having lived among the Tlingits for many years here in Alaska their > advice is simple. > "Talk to the bear and let the bear know you are human" > In other words talk and sing as you go through forest and woods letting the > bear know you are coming. If you encounter a bear talk to it and let him > have his trail. > This might seem too simple and dangerous but remember the Tlingit have lived > among the bear for thousands of years before guns and lived surrounded by > bears quite well. > I usually carry pepper spray only, but on my long trips, I carry a gun > (a .357 mag. handgun) mostly for the noise effect. My main reason for > carring one is to protect my food supply from hungry black bears. I would if > need shoot over their heads or at their feet but not at them. A wounded bear > is the most dangerous. > If you are uncomfortable with guns then don't carry one. > The problem I see with guns and some people is the bigger the gun the > more macho the attitude and the more likely they will be to use it. I have > seen bears shot when it was totally unnecessary. A tragedy to say the least. > By the way I have been charged twice, once by a brown bear and once by a > polar bear, an have survived. Also I have had numerous bears in camp you > have lived to tell the tale. > Above all keep your camp clean > cook away from you sleeping area > keep food out of the tent > and keep talking to the bears > > Bob --- degamo_at_mindspring.com --- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rev Bob was prompted with the following before giving his answer... > > You can't just leave us hanging here. What did you do to survive these > two > > attacks? Bob, Bob, Bob.... (head shaking in disappointment) You're either getting forgetful, or just being modest. We all know - even if you won't admit it - that the real story would begin something like this... "I was 100 miles from the nearest civilization, paddling waters that had not been disturbed since the Tlingit last inhabited the land. When I rounded a point, a group of Polar bears were directly in my path, and as I slowed the kayak, the biggest of them was clearly disturbed by my intrusion, and spoke to me saying "What white man is this, that dares to enter our land!" Knowing that my answer could mean the difference between life or death, I called upon the Ravens, who had been guiding my path, and asked of them, "Oh mighty and all knowing Ravens, how shall I answer the Bear, who seeks to do me harm?" Alright, Bob. Don't be bashful. Go on and finish the "real" story for us! We're waiting! :-) Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Alright, Bob. Don't be bashful. Go on and finish the "real" story for > us! We're waiting! :-) > > "I was 100 miles from the nearest civilization, paddling waters that had > not been disturbed since the Tlingit last inhabited the land. When I > rounded a point, a group of Polar bears were directly in my path, and as > I slowed the kayak, the biggest of them was clearly disturbed by my > intrusion, and spoke to me saying "What white man is this, that dares to > enter our land!" Knowing that my answer could mean the difference > between life or death, I called upon the Ravens, who had been guiding my > path, and asked of them, "Oh mighty and all knowing Ravens, how shall I > answer the Bear, who seeks to do me harm?" "Roll" said the Raven who danced on the wind above. "Give yourself unto the sea and cry for her mercy" So I rolled beneath the waves and cried out into the murky depths. Silence surrounded me and the cold waters of the sea gripped my heart. Then when all hope seemed lost behold up from the depths rose a mighty Orca. I grabbed for the tip of his tall dorsa fin as he swam under me. I righted myself with a dorsal fin assisted roll and hung on for dear life. Other Orcas arose from the depths and joined their father upon the waves. Like a mighty tsunami the Orcas and I surged toward the bears. The bears bowed to the great wolves of the sea and parted to let us pass. Onward we journeyed over the horizon to the land of Oz. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Rev., Thursday, November 6, 2003, 6:30:37 PM, you wrote: > I righted myself with a dorsal fin assisted roll and ... Now *that's* more like it Rev. Bob! :-) By the way...thanks for your reply to my other post. The times I have encountered bears, I did talk to them. Usually, starting with a _very_ polite "hello". I'm also aware of making bits of noise as I walk in the woods, but I do have to remind myself to make such noises, as I just love so much the noises of the forest, I find myself being as quiet as possible. The next book in my "read me" pile is Stephen Herrero's "Bear Attacks; their causes and avoidance". My current read is Dr. Fridtjof Nansen's "Eskimo Life". I've just started this one, and it's quite nice. Thanks again for giving us the "real" story of your adventure. :-) -- Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 05:30 PM 11/6/03 -0900, Rev. Bob Carter wrote: > Alright, Bob. Don't be bashful. Go on and finish the "real" story for >> us! We're waiting! :-) >Then when all hope seemed lost behold up from the depths rose a mighty >Orca. I Me 'ats off to the Duke! I like to think I can spin a good one once in a while, but there's no touching our beloved RevBob! -- Wes --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wes Boyd's Kayak Place NEW URL! -- http://www.kayakplace.com Kayaks for Big Guys (And Gals) | Trip Reports | Places To Go | Boats & Gear --------------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
LOL! FANTASTIC, Bob! What a GREAT "first read" on a Friday morning! Rick > Alright, Bob. Don't be bashful. Go on and finish the "real" story for > > us! We're waiting! :-) > > > > > "I was 100 miles from the nearest civilization, paddling waters that had > > not been disturbed since the Tlingit last inhabited the land. When I > > rounded a point, a group of Polar bears were directly in my path, and as > > I slowed the kayak, the biggest of them was clearly disturbed by my > > intrusion, and spoke to me saying "What white man is this, that dares to > > enter our land!" Knowing that my answer could mean the difference > > between life or death, I called upon the Ravens, who had been guiding my > > path, and asked of them, "Oh mighty and all knowing Ravens, how shall I > > answer the Bear, who seeks to do me harm?" > > "Roll" said the Raven who danced on the wind above. "Give yourself unto > the > sea > and cry for her mercy" So I rolled beneath the waves and cried out into > the > murky > depths. Silence surrounded me and the cold waters of the sea gripped my > heart. > Then when all hope seemed lost behold up from the depths rose a mighty > Orca. I > grabbed for the tip of his tall dorsa fin as he swam under me. I righted > myself with a > dorsal fin assisted roll and hung on for dear life. Other Orcas arose from > the depths > and joined their father upon the waves. Like a mighty tsunami the Orcas > and > I > surged toward the bears. The bears bowed to the great wolves of the sea > and > parted > to let us pass. Onward we journeyed over the horizon to the land of Oz. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:35 PDT
