June asked: Has anyone tried this product and/or heard good things about this righting aid that lets you recover from a capsize without leaving the boat? This CO2 powered can also be used a paddle float. It costs $123 and extra cartridges are $12.50. Check it out at: www.roll-aid.com. $123 plus $12.50 should buy several good rolling classes or clinics. Jolie San Juan Island *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/2/2004 9:53:55 AM Central Standard Time, sh_at_actglobal.net writes: > I have practiced with mine and found that it is extremely easy to get up > when it is used as recommended with 2 hands. The paddle stays next to > the boat and you just grab it and start using it. > > If somehow the paddle did blow away, all you have to do is grab your > spare paddle and you are good to go. > So let me see if I understand this correctly: A big wave blasts you over; The roll attempt fails and you let your paddle go, grab your Roll Aid, deploy it and come right side up. Seeing that your paddle is not near you, you are somehow able to comfortably retrieve and assemble the spare and paddle over to it in the same conditions that blasted you over in the first place. What happens to the Roll Aid after you right yourself and are putting together spare paddles, paddling to main paddle, etc? Of course, the paddler can easily put away a spare while afloat in rough conditions without assistance and a Roll Aid on deck or lashed to your person, right? Jolie hit the nail squarely on the head. That is: spend the money on a roll clinic or two. Just my opinion, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have also considered purchasing a Roll-Aid - again, as someone without a bomb-proof roll. I have several solo/assisted wet recoveries down pat in varying conditions BUT I look at the Roll-Aid as a yet another redundant backup. I see recoveries as something that involve a whole toolkit of tricks. Try the roll....did it work? great! Didn't work? then what is your next option? Wet exit? Is the Roll-Aid better than this? I would not suggest someone buy this aid and then not practice any other methods or not attempt to learn to roll or improve the one they have BUT I think as a last ditch back-up prior to wet exiting - I don't see a problem with it. From what I can tell, the aid has much more buoyancy than a paddlefloat. And it has a cord on it (not exposed until deployed) that allows you to tether it after deploying it - keeping it ready for a subsequent capsize (although I'm not a fan of things on cords hanging around my cockpit). If someone has $135 to spend and is willing to faithfully install it on their deck (useless if not) and is still willing to explore other recovery methods - then I say by all means, order away. I wouldn't dismiss this as an option for some people. Again, back to having a bigger toolkit with more options. I wouldn't discourage anyone from expanding their options - if they have the $. My guess is that someone with even a hint of understanding of the mechanics of a roll should be able to roll up with this aid using one hand. I would not advocate letting go of your paddle - I'd rather wet exit and climb back in than risk becoming separated from my paddle - even though I have a spare (usually stowed on the back deck which isn't the handiest place if you are still in your cockpit in challenging conditions). Of course, I should point out that I'm coming at this from the perspective of an inland water paddler - no surf zone here. Most capsizes occur while I'm doing something - like shooting pics or grabbing a snack or ?? Instances that most likely make for a less than organized roll attempt :o) Of course all the usual disclaimers apply - no connections to company or products mentioned... K *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> -----Original Message----- > > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of > Rcgibbert_at_aol.com > > So let me see if I understand this correctly: > > A big wave blasts you over; The roll attempt fails and you > let your paddle > go, grab your Roll Aid, deploy it and come right side up. > Seeing that your > paddle is not near you, you are somehow able to comfortably > retrieve and assemble > the spare and paddle over to it in the same conditions that > blasted you over in > the first place. > Rob, So let me see if I understand this correctly: A big wave blasts you over; The roll attempt fails and you are now out of air. So you wet exit into the cold water.......... The Roll Aid is NOT a substitute for a roll. It is an ADDITIONAL safety layer, not your first choice. When you "let go of the paddle", you should trap it between your arm and the boat. It is right next to you between your arm and the boat as you come up. You also don't try to stow the float after use. It has a tether that clips onto a deck line in case you need it again in the conditions that knocked you over. You can lean on it while getting your spare and it will hold you up. It is not possible to fold and re-arm the device while sitting on the water, that's why they suggest not deflating it. If you clip it to a deck line, it is very little drag and you have it available for re-use. Like any self rescue skill though, it takes PRACTICE. If someone were to purchase one, thinking it would replace learning to roll and all they need to do is attach this to their deck and they will be safe, they are terribly mistaken. Even the manufacturer stresses that it is NOT a ROLL REPLACEMENT. It is a last ditch effort prior to doing a wet exit. Once you have learned to use it, you can also use it one handed - although that does take a good hip flick to make it work. Steve Holtzman Southern CA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paddlewisers, I briefly owned a Roll-aid when it came with a used kayak I bought. Having good rolls and being a minimalist, I wasn't interested in keeping it, never tried it, and sold it to Steve Holtzman, who has been a part of this loop. I do think the Roll-aid is a good thing for people who have rolling experience but not a reliable roll and want to have a reasonably reliable alternative to wet exiting. Sure, having a reliable roll is better, but not everyone is going to have a reliable roll. Duane Strosaker www.rollordrown.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have to take issue with the "trapping the paddle" technique. Certainly that is what one should do, but the doing of it can be difficult for some. We often use eskimo resuces to back up paddlers doing rolling practice who are unsure of their rolls. They rarely seem to keep their paddles in the manner described even after being repeatedly instructed to do so. There also seems to be some inverse correlation between a paddlers ability to roll, and their ability to hang with the boat for an eskimo rescue. The paddler I described in an earlier email told me he made a conscious decision to give up and deploy this device after the first roll attempt when he still had plenty of air. I don't recall if he kept his paddle, but the chances of doing so in that case are decent. A more realistic scenario is repeated roll attemps by a paddler who has every expectation of a successful one. By the time a decision is made to deploy, breathing will be the only concern. I guess the same is true of an exit, but my point is that any plans of using this device should include plans of how to retrieve your spare without ending up in the water. Steve Holtzman <sh_at_actglobal.net> wrote: > -----Original Message----- ............ The Roll Aid is NOT a substitute for a roll. It is an ADDITIONAL safety layer, not your first choice. When you "let go of the paddle", you should trap it between your arm and the boat. It is right next to you between your arm and the boat as you come up. .............. Steve Holtzman Southern CA Steve Brown *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I have to take issue with the "trapping the paddle" > technique. Certainly that is what one should do, but the > doing of it can be difficult for some. We often use eskimo > resuces to back up paddlers doing rolling practice who are > unsure of their rolls. They rarely seem to keep their paddles > in the manner described even after being repeatedly > instructed to do so. There also seems to be some inverse > correlation between a paddlers ability to roll, and their > ability to hang with the boat for an eskimo rescue................ > A more realistic scenario is repeated roll attemps by a > paddler who has every expectation of a successful one. By the > time a decision is made to deploy, breathing will be the only > concern. I guess the same is true of an exit, but my point is > that any plans of using this device should include plans of > how to retrieve your spare without ending up in the water. Steve, I agree with you on this. However, one thing that a lot of the people on Paddlewise writing about this don't seem to know, since they have never used one is that this is not like using a paddle float, although it can be used as one. There is much more buoyancy to the Roll Aid than to any paddle float I have ever tried. You can actually lean onto it and it will hold you up. The entanglement issue that some have mentioned is also another non-issue. It has about 18 inches of very thin cord and a plastic clip to clip it to a deck line. This cord is easily broken by hand if necessary. The float is not connected to you or the boat when you deploy it. If you let go of the handle, it will blow away. My main objection to most of the arguments I've heard from others, is that they feel this should be used in place of learning to roll and THAT IS JUST PLAIN WRONG!!! Even the manufacturer's literature states that your first line of defense in a capsize is to roll. The Roll Aid is strictly to help prevent a wet exit and nothing more. At almost $25 per use (including shipping), I am too cheap to use it unless it was a life threatening situation. Again, first line defense is a roll, then when you can't hold your breath anymore and the water is too cold or too rough to consider a wet exit (and if it was too rough, what was the person doing out in those conditions without a bomb proof roll), only then would I deploy it. I think of this along the same lines as my VHF and flares. I carry them both to either call the CG or attract attention in case of an emergency. Capsizing is not necessarily a reason to have to call the CG or shoot a flare. They are another tool to use WHEN NECESSARY. Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/2/2004 12:54:19 PM Central Standard Time, sh_at_actglobal.net writes: > So let me see if I understand this correctly: > > A big wave blasts you over; The roll attempt fails and you are now out > of air. So you wet exit into the cold water.......... Not likely ; ). Actually if I was out of air from multiple attempts at rolling I'd likely be so for a Roll Aid. > > The Roll Aid is NOT a substitute for a roll. It is an ADDITIONAL safety > layer, not your first choice. When you "let go of the paddle", you > should trap it between your arm and the boat. It is right next to you > between your arm and the boat as you come up. I can see it working in flatter water, accidental capsizes from goofing off, photos, etc., as Keith mentions. But in rough water I would view it suspiciously. Your paddle might stay in place, might not. You might have a tether on the paddle that saves you from having to reassemble a spair, but that might tangle in the Roll Aid tether. I think the amount of practice one dedicates to a Roll Aid in all water conditions can be dedicated to rolling. The device might be considered by someone to be a good bridge product between not having a roll and a competent one. If I had one I'd learn to roll with it without thinking of letting the paddle go, if that's even possible. But like a lot of things it can also be one more product needing inspection, maintenance, practice in a variety of conditions, all of which can be dedicated towards a dependable roll. > > You also don't try to stow the float after use. It has a tether that > clips onto a deck line in case you need it again in the conditions that > knocked you over. You can lean on it while getting your spare and it > will hold you up. It is not possible to fold and re-arm the device while > sitting on the water, that's why they suggest not deflating it. If you > clip it to a deck line, it is very little drag and you have it available > for re-use. We still have entanglement issues, possible interference with paddle strokes and braces. Now I have to paddle with this thing all day? Should one land to reassemble into a redeployable product or can a few minutes after rafting up with someone make it redeployable? > > Like any self rescue skill though, it takes PRACTICE. If someone were to > purchase one, thinking it would replace learning to roll and all they > need to do is attach this to their deck and they will be safe, they are > terribly mistaken. Even the manufacturer stresses that it is NOT a ROLL > REPLACEMENT. It is a last ditch effort prior to doing a wet exit. Once > you have learned to use it, you can also use it one handed - although > that does take a good hip flick to make it work. > > Or, a hip flick that is likely good enough to make a real roll succeed. No, I'll stick to 4 season rolling practice and save my money for rolaids needed after reconstituting the dehi chil. People travelling by air will also need to procur co2 cartridges locally as they are not welcome on planes. It can work but the opportunities to put me in a more vulnerable position than after a roll are just as possible. Just my 2 cents, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/3/2004 10:02:27 AM Central Standard Time, sh_at_actglobal.net writes: > At almost $25 per use (including shipping), I am too cheap to use it > unless it was a life threatening situation. > But, on 2-2-04 Steve said: "Like any self rescue skill though, it takes PRACTICE. If someone were to purchase one, thinking it would replace learning to roll and all they need to do is attach this to their deck and they will be safe, they are terribly mistaken. " Wow! I had no idea the cartridges were so spendy. How does one repeatedly practice with something as expensive to feed as that? Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Rcgibbert_at_aol.com [mailto:Rcgibbert_at_aol.com] In a message dated 2/3/2004 10:02:27 AM Central Standard Time, sh_at_actglobal.net writes: At almost $25 per use (including shipping), I am too cheap to use it unless it was a life threatening situation. But, on 2-2-04 Steve said: "Like any self rescue skill though, it takes PRACTICE. If someone were to purchase one, thinking it would replace learning to roll and all they need to do is attach this to their deck and they will be safe, they are terribly mistaken. " Wow! I had no idea the cartridges were so spendy. How does one repeatedly practice with something as expensive to feed as that? [Steve Holtzman] It is very easy to practice with it by manually inflating it. That way you don't use any cartridges and it doesn't cost anything to practice. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob posted: >Wow! I had no idea the cartridges were so spendy. How does one repeatedly practice with something as expensive to feed as that?< I have the same problem with my Mustang inflatable life vest -- about $25.00 per cartridge/pin replacement. But, the last time I was rescued at sea, they figured $10,000.00 cnd including military flight/fuel time. $25.00 seems cheap by comparison to spend once and awhile if a device is integral toward a major rescue component of a paddler's given strategies. (In my case I use my vest like a Roll-aid device). I was given a new, unused Roll-aid a few years ago, but eventually returned it to the gentleman who offered it to me. He'd spent a fortune on private rolling lessons and felt he had no use for the device. I, however, never carried it and upon hearing this, the paddler in question suggested I give it back to him to let other paddlers evaluate/use it. Last I heard, no one had, though it appears to be an excellent product. Maybe the Roll-aid designer should get together with Timmy and come up with a double whammy, dual-self-inflating-sponson thingy. Subaru could give them away free with a kayak when you but a new car. I did find the Roll-aid to be a bit bulky, and best mounted on the front deck which would be a potential source for banged, cold knuckles. The rear-deck mounting option looked more practical, but alas, my Nordkapp's deckspace was at a premium. And how heavy does one want to get? Besides, the part of my paddling career where I would have benefited from the inclusion of the Roll-aid was well past by the time I was given one. And I did manage to survive without it (well, I did and still do, carry two paddlefloats and a Sea Seat, so how much else did I really need?). I tried experimenting with CO2 cartridges for the Sea Seat, but the two minute manual inflation time isn't bad (considering the alternative). My two most precious ultimate rescue devices (other than a strong, reliable roll) are my VHF radio -- for the very odd chance I can't get myself out of a bad spot of trouble, like a blown shoulder or neck injury-- and, as always, a large bottle of real Rolaids. No kidding. I'd never survive my back-country cooking and evening nip of Whiskey without those Rolaids. My p-r-e-c-i-o-u-s. Don't leave home without them. Ever tried navigating demanding, rough seas for extended periods with really bad heartburn? Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:53 a.m. 02/02/2004 -0800, Steve Holtzman wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> >> [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of >> Rcgibbert_at_aol.com >> >> So let me see if I understand this correctly: >> >> A big wave blasts you over; The roll attempt fails and you >> let your paddle >> go, grab your Roll Aid, deploy it and come right side up. >> Seeing that your >> paddle is not near you, you are somehow able to comfortably >> retrieve and assemble >> the spare and paddle over to it in the same conditions that >> blasted you over in >> the first place. >> IF somebody is bound to go into all that trouble due to the fact that he/she doesn4t have a bombproof roll, might as well consider the possibility of having a paddle leash. Then he/she can use the Roll Aid and get back to his paddle afterwards. Just don4t get tangled with it. Rafael el cayucochief *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> -----Original Message----- >> >> [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of >> Rcgibbert_at_aol.com >> >> So let me see if I understand this correctly: >> >> A big wave blasts you over; The roll attempt fails and you >> let your paddle >> go, grab your Roll Aid, deploy it and come right side up. >> Seeing that your >> paddle is not near you, you are somehow able to comfortably >> retrieve and assemble >> the spare and paddle over to it in the same conditions that >> blasted you over in >> the first place. >> IF somebody is bound to go into all that trouble due to the fact that he/she doesn4t have a bombproof roll, might as well consider the possibility of having a paddle leash. Then he/she can use the Roll Aid and get back to his paddle afterwards. Just don4t get tangled with it. Rafael el cayucochief *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've been following the discussion with some interest and developed a basic question. What is the advantage of the Roll-Aid over a foam or self inflating paddle float? Wouldn't you be better off applying the paddle float, roll up with the assistance of the float, and then use the paddle with float as an outrigger while you get things back under control? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/4/2004 12:57:04 PM Central Standard Time, whiterabbit_0117_at_charter.net writes: > I've been following the discussion with some interest and developed a basic > question. What is the advantage of the Roll-Aid over a foam or self > inflating paddle float? Wouldn't you be better off applying the paddle > float, roll up with the assistance of the float, and then use the paddle > with float as an outrigger while you get things back under control? > The roll aid is (relatively) compact and inflates to a large size in seconds. In that manner a capsize can be righted. For a paddle float, foam or inflatable, would have to be kept inflated and appears not to offer the 80 pound buoyancy of a roll aid. Greenlanders carried Avataq's on their rear decks. These were basically seal skin harpoon floats and they learned to roll with them. Paddlers can buy a synthetic Avataq from www.brookspaddlegear.com. Nontheless, it'll still be a large air filled sack under your deck bungies. The advantage of a roll aid is it's in the capsule until you deploy it. Once you use it it'll become like an Avataq until it is put back into its case and rearmed. No small feat on the water. Nor does the prospect of dragging a mini zeppelin through the water all day sound like a lot of fun, either. If I'm gonna do that it'll be filled with beer. ; ) The paddle floats are on your front or back deck the whole time assuming they don't wash off or get blown off. A foam float can be deployed if the customer keeps their cool underwater long enough to slip it on and roll up. I have a nice Northwater foam float, but I still carry the inflatables as I just hate schlepping all the bulky gear. But if one is suspicious of their combat roll why not make a snorkel breathing tube and run it under your spray deck and use that until your roll improves? Cheers, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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