The many kind and supporting mails about GPS waterproblems have let me to look into the standards and the result leaves little room for optimism regarding gps and vhf equipment. The best was found in the following quote: " USCG CFR-46 refers to the Coast Guard definition for waterproof, this is not a Coast Guard requirement. The Coast Guard definition is found in 46 CFR 110.15-1(b)19, which states that a "Waterproof machine means a totally enclosed machine so constructed that a stream of water from a hose with a nozzle one inch in diameter that delivers at least 65 gallons per minute can be played on the machine from any direction from a distance of about 10 feet for a period of not less than 5 minutes without leakage...". A similar description applied to watertight. International Maritime Organization (IMO) Resolution A.605(15), referring to VHF hand-helds used in survival craft, describes water-tight requirements as "The equipment should be watertight to a depth of 1 meter for at least 5 minutes", and that it should "maintain watertightness when subjected to a thermal shock of 45 degrees C under conditions of immersion." " yet in http://www.captfklanier.com/articles/art7.htm (about USCG 46 CFR), Frank Lanier explains that even the above "standard" is not valid now. The comments and the many mails from paddlers demonstrate that there is an ocean between the users and the manufacturers and that the ocean sometimes may be kept inside the manufacturers watertight products. Something like: my watch is watertight. Once inside the water will never leave it. A closer look at the JIS7/IPX7, JIS8/IPX8 and IEC 529 shows very much the same: they are not applicable for equipment at sea where waterpressure gives a much different situation from a cautious immersion into a bathtub. There seems to be no appropriate standard in use that covers our situation. The manufacturers can apparently not be expected to establish new ways of specification that relates to real life since that could render most of their product a classification as not recommendable. It is not that I blame the manufacturers. I just hope they can find a proper way to handle problems like condensation, pressure equalization/resistance and heating from sun and internal circuitry. Our bags and boxes are emergency measures and such greenhouses are certainly not optimal solutions. I once sold instruments where leather cases were used to withstand waterhosing on sensitive spots. At sea we need genuine submarines that float! optimistically Jens Viggo Moesmand Denmark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Clearly one of the goals is to be able to claim "Waterproof" by the marketing department. In my opinion, we tend to stress the products more than other users because they sit on a hot kayak deck, easily reaching over 100F (in my case) then being immersed in water that may be 40 degrees cooler. That change in temperature, causes a change in pressure and results in equivalent depths many times greater than the 5 feet stipulated in the specs. If you have a look at the construction of a scuba computer, the battery compartment is oring sealed and screwed shut. The electronics are typically encapsulated in a special potting mixture. All exposed metal (contacts, etc) is stainless. The big difference is that computers do not need regular battery changes like GPS units do. So, for me, when I need to use a GPS in the bath (not too hot) I'll forgo a case. When I need to use it in real world conditions, I'll give it the extra protection it requires. cu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi all, I have a GPSmap 76S that has been a joy to take hiking, climbing and paddling (functionally that is.) Great job designing the features, but yes, the case gave me a scare when I capsized and later found the unit non-functional. It was just the batteries that gave up due to salt water immersion, but that still left me with no position etc. I've got two ideas I want to try, but since the water here is still solid, maybe someone else has tried them and can report. First, and easiest, I'm thinking of taping the seams of the battery/power cover with a quality plastic tape in hopes that the pressure drop from a dunking will pull the tape tighter into the seams and prohibit the entry of water. Ditto the external antenna jack as I don't have an antenna on my helmet <g>. If that doesn't do the trick, I plan to coat the inside of the cover with oil or petrolium jelly so silicone sealant won't stick and then fill the gap around the OUTSIDE of the battery compartment with silicone sealant and press the cover nearly into place. After it sets, I'll trim away the flash and hopefully have a custom gasket. A little silicone grease from my dive kit might seal the stalk of the latch. Next I'll try both together. I don't like the bags because the size of the unit is increased, operation and legibility are compromized, and heat that would normally escape to the environment is trapped on the unit. I did put a screen protector from my PDA over the GPS screen so I can peel off scratches when they happen. I had to trim the screen protector, but it works great! The ones I have for my Pocket PC work better than the ones I have for my Palm device as the plastic is different and easier to see thru. Your results may vary. Has anyone tried these ideas? Regards, Carey *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Not only does the sudden temperature change create a higher apparent pressure, it also softens up the adhesives used to create the seal. http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/gallery/MiscPhotos/IMG_1630 shows my Etrex after it died. The black rubber at the top of the picture creates the seal around the front and back half of the unit. On the upper portion you can see the inside and you can see some grayish spots. This is where the double-sided tape that forms the seal has separated from the rubber. I speculate this is from the heat of being on deck. The softened seal creates the leak and the sudden pressure change sucks the water in. It might not hurt to paint the unit white to keep it from heating up as much. Nick On Feb 12, 2004, at 9:31 AM, Bob Denton wrote: > Clearly one of the goals is to be able to claim "Waterproof" by the > marketing department. In my opinion, we tend to stress the products > more > than other users because they sit on a hot kayak deck, easily reaching > over > 100F (in my case) then being immersed in water that may be 40 degrees > cooler. > > That change in temperature, causes a change in pressure and results in > equivalent depths many times greater than the 5 feet stipulated in the > specs. > Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/gallery/MiscPhotos/IMG_1630 shows my > Etrex after it died. The black rubber at the top of the picture creates > the seal around the front and back half of the unit. On the upper > portion you can see the inside and you can see some grayish spots. This > is where the double-sided tape that forms the seal has separated from > the rubber. Quite informative picture. It really went through the seal (which was supposed to be waterproof) , - not through the slots around battery cover. Btw, I tried recent suggestion with transparent vinyl drybag (Legend, same class as Vista, only without compass) - not too good. Wrap is bulky, doesn't fit into any PFD pocket, and readability of screen isn't beter than in Aquapack bag. Until I get enough dough for a $300 waterproof model, looks like drybag (or Aquapack) + silicagel is the way to go. Just don't see any better solution. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
If you look at the back of the unit http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/gallery/MiscPhotos/IMG_1630 on the right you will see some green tape. This covers the hole for the battery cover latch. This tape is intact. Water getting into the batter compartment will wreck the batteries but will not get into the electronics unless this green tape fails. It is more likely the tape under the black rubber will fail first. The seal to the battery compartment is waterproof enough that it is unlikely that there will be pressurized water trying to force its way through the green tape. In previous units like the Etrex and 76 the seal is created by the black rubber around the perimeter. It looks like the 60 does not use the same seal system between the front and back. It may be better, but then again I expected the 76 to be better because it did not try to put controls in the perimeter rubber which compromised the ability of the Etrex to maintain a good seal. Waterproof is not conceptually hard. All you need no holes. A GPS does not need significant pressure resistance, it just needs to keep water out when briefly dunked. This should not be that hard. On Feb 12, 2004, at 8:10 PM, alex wrote: >> http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/gallery/MiscPhotos/IMG_1630 shows my >> Etrex after it died. The black rubber at the top of the picture >> creates >> the seal around the front and back half of the unit. On the upper >> portion you can see the inside and you can see some grayish spots. >> This >> is where the double-sided tape that forms the seal has separated from >> the rubber. > > Quite informative picture. It really went through the seal (which was > supposed to be waterproof) , - not through the slots around battery > cover. > Btw, I tried recent suggestion with transparent vinyl drybag (Legend, > same > class as Vista, only without compass) - not too good. Wrap is bulky, > doesn't fit into any PFD pocket, and readability of screen isn't beter > than > in Aquapack bag. Until I get enough dough for a $300 waterproof model, > looks like drybag (or Aquapack) + silicagel is the way to go. Just > don't > see any better solution. > Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Until I get enough dough for a $300 waterproof model, > looks like drybag (or Aquapack) + silicagel is the way to go. Just don't > see any better solution. > On the second thought - there is no guarantee that new all-waterproof 60C model is more waterproof than Vista (which wasn't much cheaper). I recall from previous posts that they have added O-ring (around battery cover?); this has little to do with damages shown on the Nick's Vista. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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