Dave posted (snip): >A few of us were wondering why we never hear of kayak fatalities involving folding kayaks. We could only think of Fritz Romer's disappearance.< There was a double fatality off the Victoria waterfront out toward Haro Strait back in the early eighties (young man and a woman). The Klepper was reported to be under sail at the time. The paddlers succumbed to hypothermia. The local British kayak dealer made a big to do out of it citing extra width as a detriment in poor sea conditions. I doubt that. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/3/2004 8:17:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, kdruger_at_pacifier.com writes: > A few of us were wondering why we never hear of kayak fatalities involving > folding kayaks. We could only think of Fritz Romer's disappearance. > In "Seekers of the Horizon", Will Nordby, Ed., 1989, p. 107, there is an account of someone travelling in a blue and gray Folbot being killed and eaten by a bear in the Glacier Bay vicinity. Actually that was more of a camping fatality. Tony Niilus *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Did the bear also eat the kayak or did he eat the kayak's contents and spit out the kayak? Sort of like whether you eat the insides only of a piece of fruit or both the insides and the outsides. In "Seekers of the Horizon", Will Nordby, Ed., 1989, p. 107, there is an account of someone travelling in a blue and gray Folbot being killed and eaten by a bear in the Glacier Bay vicinity. Actually that was more of a camping fatality. Tony Niilus *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug, do you still have any old copies of the OKABC newsletter you used to write for? I think they had some articles about death by Klepper. The owner of the Victoria kayak shop with the British philosophy would speculate about every accident that happened with a folding kayak. At one point he asked what it was about those folding kayaks that made them so dangerous. I think he speculated that it might be that the Kleppers were so wide they were impossible to right again once they had capsized (and maybe that, unlike narrow kayaks with tiny cockpits, they couldn't be Eskimo rolled). I think one of his examples was the death of one or two paddlers (I don't remember which) that happened in Atlin Lake in Northern BC. I recall another accident in BC in either the Vancouver or Victoria area that was written up in the OKABC newsletter. I don't recall if it was also a fatality though. Doug already mentioned the OKABC and SKABC wars back in the early mid 1980's. I think both organizations were started by competing British Columbia retailers, one was promoting British kayaks and the other, coming from the colonies, hated things British, especially what he considered their self-righteous and rigid attitude toward kayak instruction. To get back on topic, The anti-BCU retailer was also a promoter of, you guessed it, wide folding kayaks (which was probably the hidden agenda for OKABC's attacks on them). I'm sure there have been other fatalities in folding kayaks but I'm not recalling any at the moment. One well known instructor around here had an old Foldboat's frame coming apart early in his kayaking career when he was out in rough seas. His girlfriend, in the back seat, later told me that boat had gotten so flexible, as the frame was coming apart in the middle, that her partner up front kept nearly disappearing over the crest of each wave. A bear had obviously chewed on the folding kayak that Will Nordby and his brother (who related the story to me) came upon at a campsite in Glacier Bay. The (solo) kayaker (to go with the kayak) was no where to be found in the area, so they reported that to the authorities. The authorities shot the black bear they discovered in the area and found that it had eaten at least parts of the missing kayaker. It has been reported by some that bears really like to chew on the rubber in folding kayaks. Well, maybe that was just another red herring put out by the OKABC, I don't remember where I heard or read it first. Some folks I was paddling in folding double kayaks with in the Queen Charlotte Islands didn't even want to land in one area, Benjamin Point where a problem bear had been reported, because they were afraid a Klepper chewing bear might attack and destroy their kayak, if not them. I pointed out that there were no bears visible for several hundred yards over open ground so we would have plenty of time to land for a few seconds to exchange paddling partners and be gone again before any bear, even one charging full out, could ever reach us. We wanted to switch kayaks around because one paddler was sick. It had already been a long paddling day and given we had a sick paddler I had wanted to camp there at Benjamin Point. Everyone else, even the very ill paddler, wanted to paddle another five miles or so to the next camping spot. Later as we neared that campsite we saw a bear on a beach not too far from the beach where we finally camped. It could easily have been the same problem bear from a several miles away. We camped there anyway. It wasn't a really big bear (like the Klepper eating bear back at Benjamin Point had been imagined to be). It's funny how the unknown, but imagined, hazard can be so much scarier than a known hazard that is clearly visible. Matt Broze, another survivor of Y2K. www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net> > what it was about those folding kayaks that made them so dangerous. I think > he speculated that it might be that the Kleppers were so wide they were > impossible to right again once they had capsized (and maybe that, unlike > narrow kayaks with tiny cockpits, they couldn't be Eskimo rolled). Interesting thought but not true. The doubles can be righted fairly easily either by going over the upside down boat and pulling or by ducking under and into the cockpit where you will find an airpocket to catch your breath and then flip the boat back rightside up. > I'm sure there have been other fatalities in folding kayaks but I'm not > recalling any at the moment. One well known instructor around here had an > old Foldboat's frame coming apart early in his kayaking career when he was > out in rough seas. His girlfriend, in the back seat, later told me that boat > had gotten so flexible Such a situation does happen very occasionally. I had a friend who was out in a double Klepper when the block of the horseshoe and block connection at the keel part of the frame broke off. So the boat got quite floppy but Kleppers (and Folbots) have some redundancy of connections built in: there is a similar horseshoe and block connection up at the gunwales on both sides of the boat plus there are stringers or longerons lower down at the chine plus the rigidity of the coaming itself that overlaps the connection of frame halves. It doesn't feel nice when any one of such components break but you can get to shoe because of redundancy of frame components locking the halves together. > A bear had obviously chewed on the folding kayak that Will Nordby > parts of the missing kayaker. It has been reported by some that bears really > like to chew on the rubber in folding kayaks. Well, maybe that was just > another red herring put out by the OKABC, I don't remember where I heard or > read it first. Actually this is true. Bears are known to have a speech impediment in pronouncing the letter "r". It comes out with a "bl" sound; one bear mistakenly heard another say that there was some blubber over there and the foldable suffered the consequences. You might think that that this "bl" point is a lot of "bs" and you would be right but old wives tales about folding kayaks are a lot of bs anyway. :-) ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt wrote: - >I think he speculated that it might be >that the Kleppers were so wide they were >impossible to right again once they had >capsized (and maybe that, unlike narrow >kayaks with tiny cockpits, they couldn't >be Eskimo rolled). G'Day, I'ld say that as a speculation its off the mark. Haven't noticed any difference in righting a capsized Klepper vs righting a capsized hardshell. Regarding rolling the speculation might be closer if it suggested that most people who own Kleppers don't realise they can be rolled and don't set them up for rolling. Having said that, I must confess I don't know if they are harder to roll in extreme conditions? On a slightly different tack I've often wondered if the black hypalon hulls of typical folding kayaks would make them look like a seal to a hungry shark. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In Australia there is a little known but published early 1960's miliary incident involving folding kayaks and a notorious stretch of water called The Rip at the mouth of Port Phillip Bay in Victoria This empties into Bass Strait which divides Australian mainland from Tasmania.It is an area known for overfalls and currents of 6-8 kts.Approx 5 km wide and the site of many wrecks and multiple drownings.It's what happens when 1950 km of shallow water flows through a 5 km entrance an over the continental shelf. The details are approximately this: Army Reserve (part time) Commandos attempt to paddle across The Rip in a weekend training exercise and weather was bad.Believe 3 paddlers drowned after their kayaks and safety craft (Army Amphibious DUKW from memory of articles) were swamped in high seas + gale conditions.Final outcome was poor planning and judgement + bad weather leading to the fataliites.ie.Should not have been there. Kayaks used (I believe) were a 2 man folder used by Australian Military Forces prior to the introduction of the Klepper Aerius 11 in the later 1960's - which has and is still used by Commando and Special Air Service in Australia.This was my introduction to Kleppers (and have one today.).There are likely to be other instances of several foldables deaths in Australia and may of the military SAS training incidents are not reported for secrecy reasons. Message is that any type of kayak or small craft can be dangerous in bad conditions requiring excellent judgement - often times saying "no" to being there in the first place. How often with adventure sports do we blame the gear rather than the individuals involved (their judgements + abilities or lack of) and the conditions they are doing their activity in. That said the Klepper and other foldables have proven themselves (in the right hands) to be durable, stable, able to carry heavy expedition (and military loads) and have great sea keeping abilities. Leigh Brennan-Smith Melbourne, Australia *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt posted (snip): >Doug, do you still have any old copies of the OKABC newsletter you used to write for? I think they had some articles about death by Klepper.< Excerpt by Fred Potter, President at the time of The Ocean Kayaking Association of BC. From Newsletter #12, September 1982, original spelling: "A few points to consider in regards to the tragic death of two kayakers during July 1982. The area involved was off Victoria in the Cattle Pt., Cadboro Bay, Discovery Isl. This area is known for tide races, small whirl pool and upward boils during times of large tides. These conditions can be further modified and intensified by the appearance of wind its velocity and direction in relationship to the tide strenght and direction. The kayak involved was a Klepper "Aquarus" know for their stability (good). Both people were wearing PFD's, when found the kayak appeared to have no damage." I have all the back issues _except_ #13, which is the one I believe where Derek Bamforth, the Victoria kayak shop owner went on to make comments about relative stability. In retrospect, I don't recall if the Klepper in question was actually under sail (or assumed under sail at the time of the incident). My memory tends to get a bit selective as has been glaringly pointed out here and there, so I'll try to state up front when there is a fog rolling in. :-) >To get back on topic, The anti-BCU retailer was also a promoter of, you guessed it, wide folding kayaks (which was probably the hidden agenda for OKABC's attacks on them).< Derek Hutchinson made a fine distinction shortly prior to newsletter #12 regarding his opinion that there are (were, I guess) two distinct branches in sea kayaking: Ocean Kayaking and Ocean Kleppering. Different pursuits, different gear, different rescue strategies I think were his points, but I better not put words in his mouth. Personally, I think the issue with wider boats, both Kleppers, other folders, and tandem hard-shells is that the occupants have a false sense of security, with the real tragedy being that the paddlers tend not to practice rescue drills, which is unfortunate when one considers the ease of a wet-boarding when two paddlers are present to counterbalance. Regardless. folders have made a profound contribution to the enjoyment of sea (or ocean) kayaking the world over, introducing many to the wonderful attributes of our watery planet. Tour companies continue to reap the benefits (along with the clientele) of these versatile craft. Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:36 PDT