I've been reading too many forums and archives on the Net and have read several people dismissing the roll as a real life self recovery technique. I'm working on rolling - I can do it now just need to get reliable with it. So real life - packed for a day trip or a weekend - did you ever fall over, roll up and keep going? Cheers, je The world revolves around engineers...only because they choose to pick their own coordinate origin. ------------------------------------- janellen_at_harriman4.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Many, many times. Rogue waves, surf, night paddling. One should also learn the re-entry and rescue. Josh (paddling 4 times a week off the Israeli Mediterranean coast. Forward stroke now up there with the best of them, for those of you who remember my frustration...) At 06:02 PM 5/17/2004, je wrote: >So real life - packed for a day trip or a weekend - did you ever fall >over, roll up and keep going? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 17 May 2004 at 17:02, je wrote: > So real life - packed for a day trip or a weekend - did you ever fall > over, roll up and keep going? Watch any WW paddling video. If they can roll up every time, why can't we? A loaded kayak is only a little harder to roll - it starts slower and ends easier. In all my years of kayaking, I've never gone over without wanting to or without practicing something where I was likely to upset. In touring, I've never needed to roll. Remember - it's easier to roll than to learn a really good forward stroke. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Real life", I'm sure I've capsized and rolled up many hundreds of times while playing in surf and rock gardens in WW boats and in touring boats. Occasionally while on a day "touring" trip I've been hammered by the surf and had to roll up as well. I can't recall ever flipping accidentally with a fully loaded boat (I have practiced with them though). Loaded boats are harder to capsize than an empty one and easier to roll up. Once your roll becomes reliable you spend most of your time having fun in the surf (river, tidal current, etc) rather than swimming so you learn much faster. I rarely flip anymore except when playing really rough. I think the norm is that those who spend the time to have reliable combat rolls end up rarely needing them in the end. I still practice my roll EVERY time I go out though. As other paddlers have pointed out, even with a reliable roll you need plan B, C, and....... A reliable roll will naturally end up becoming a reliable re-entry and roll (B), and paddle float re-entry and roll (C). Standard PF re-entry and scramble are others that should be learned. My advice: Keep working on your roll. Practice every time you go out, and in increasingly rougher water. If you don't have an off side roll, start working on that as well. Steve Brown -----Original Message----- I've been reading too many forums and archives on the Net and have read several people dismissing the roll as a real life self recovery technique. I'm working on rolling - I can do it now just need to get reliable with it. So real life - packed for a day trip or a weekend - did you ever fall over, roll up and keep going? Cheers, je *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
That kind of thinking is just crazy! A roll is the best self rescue technique one can employ. It's faster than a reentry, keeps you dryer and warmer, conserves energy, and is a hell of a lot more fun. As for "real life" applications, I use my roll mostly when playing in surf (if you're in it long enough, and it's big enough, and you're exploring the boundaries of your skills, sooner or later you'll catch an edge). I've also used my roll while playing in high velocity eddies doing turnouts, exploring up-current edged turns. Rolling is actually easy once you understand and develop good mechanics. It's only difficult if you do it incorrectly (proper outfitting really helps, but with good technique you can roll just about anything). It is, after all, a matter of mechanics, not physical force. As for loaded boats, I've always found loaded boats actually easier to roll (as long as you don't have too much crap on the deck) than an empty boat, as the roll axis is lower in the water. A loaded boat will roll slower, so the mechanics are executed slower. But once you get the thing spinning, the inertia kicks in. Yes, keep practicing reentries, but a solid roll will make sure you're the one assisting, not the one being assisted. It's a priceless investment. It's a feedback loop: The better you brace, the better you roll. The better you roll, the better you brace. The better you brace, the less you'll need to roll. Mitch ___________________________________ | | CoyoteCo Performance Sea Kayaking | Instruction & Video Production | www.CoyoteCo.Net | 360 896-2151 |___________________________________ > From: je > Subject: [Paddlewise] Real life rolling > > > I've been reading too many forums and archives on the Net and > have read > several people dismissing the roll as a real life self recovery > technique. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 18 May 2004 13:23:50 -0700, "Mitchell McKinnon" <coyote_at_pacifier.com> said: That kind of thinking is just crazy! A roll is the best self rescue technique one can employ. It's faster than a reentry, keeps you dryer and warmer, conserves energy, and is a hell of a lot more fun. For what it is worth, I agree. Thousands of whitewater paddlers have very good rolls, there is no reason thousands of sea kayakers can't as well. No reason beyond the silly idea that self-rescue is somehow more reliable, safer and all that. Yes, self-rescues are one bunch of arrows to have in the safety quiver, but a reliable roll is better than all the rest put together. I miss a whitewater roll once a decade, I've never missed a sea kayak roll. Yeah, yeah, I'll miss one next time because I said this in writing, but I'll just make a second attempt, come up, and not have to swim. I know because I practice my roll a lot, I paddle whitewater and because my balance is good enough that I don't tip much. All it takes is practice. Thirty-eight years worth in my case, but most people can learn faster than that. Maybe not everyone will take their paddling skills to the level of having a good roll, but that's no reason to pretend that rollling is not the best recovery skill there is. Especially when newcomers are listening. In my opinion. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:43 AM 5/19/2004 -0700, James wrote: >On Tue, 18 May 2004 13:23:50 -0700, "Mitchell McKinnon" ><coyote_at_pacifier.com> said: That kind of thinking is just crazy! A roll >is the best self rescue technique one can employ. It's faster than a >reentry, keeps you dryer >and warmer, conserves energy, and is a hell of a lot more fun. > > >For what it is worth, I agree. Thousands of whitewater paddlers have >very good rolls, there is no reason thousands of sea kayakers can't as >well. No reason beyond the silly idea that self-rescue is somehow more >reliable, safer and all that. Yes, self-rescues are one bunch of arrows >to have in the safety quiver, but a reliable roll is better than all the >rest put together. I think it's a bit misleading to compare rolling a whitewater kayak to rolling a sea kayak (even though the technique involved is essentially identical). Whitewater kayaker have rescue option that might not be available to sea kayakers and sea kayakers have self rescue options that are typically not appropriate in whitewater conditions. Those differences are generally dictated by the conditions in which each in paddling. Assuming someone capsizes while paddling class II-III whitewater, doesn't roll, and comes out of their boat. In that case, the swimmer basically floats/swims until they reach a spot on the river where it is safe to stand up and can pull their boat out (and collect the rest of their gear). The paddler then and reenters while on land. That's an option that may not be available to sea kayakers especially from a capsize far from shore in cold water. That whitewater paddler is also not going to employ self or assisted rescues that are typically available to the sea kayaker. A paddlefloat rescue and even an assisted t-rescue just takes too long and would be very difficult in pretty much anything class II and above. It's also worth noting that the majority of sea kayakers are not going to be paddling in conditions as potentially dangerous as soon as whitewater paddlers might. Even in class II conditions, strainers, pins, and other obstacles which come into play in moving water mandate learning how to roll quickly. Many sea kayaker might never paddle in breaking surf, strong currents, or in rock gardens, and the primary danger is more likely hypothermia due paddling in cold water. Whitewater paddler and sea kayakers deal with different conditions with different risks so it's not surprising that learning to roll takes a different precedent. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Fereira wrote: > It's also worth noting that the majority of sea kayakers are not going > to be paddling in conditions as potentially dangerous as soon as > whitewater paddlers might. Even in class II conditions, strainers, > pins, and other obstacles which come into play in moving water mandate > learning how to roll quickly. Many sea kayaker might never paddle in > breaking surf, strong currents, or in rock gardens, and the primary > danger is more likely hypothermia due paddling in cold water. > > Whitewater paddler and sea kayakers deal with different conditions with > different risks so it's not surprising that learning to roll takes a > different precedent. I'll take it a little farther than that. Around here, hundreds of paddlers paddle in warm flat water for years without flipping at all. Should they learn to roll as a safety measure? This would, of course, entail purposefully flipping several times on each outing, to practice a self-rescue technique that they wouldn't, in the normal course of 5-10 years, ever need. Northern boaters' experience may vary. On the other hand, WW boaters are highly likely to flip frequently (Eric Jackson says in his new video that he is upside down 40-50 times every time he goes out, but he's a rodeo boater) and need to be able to roll to avoid the nasty stuff that John alludes to. -- Steve (But it's a _fun_ parlor trick) Cramer Athens, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 19 May 2004, at 21:47, Steve Cramer wrote: > I'll take it a little farther than that. Around here, hundreds of > paddlers paddle in warm flat water for years without flipping at all. > Should they learn to roll as a safety measure? This would, of course, > entail purposefully flipping several times on each outing, to practice > a self-rescue technique that they wouldn't, in the normal course of > 5-10 years, ever need. Northern boaters' experience may vary. This is why rolling is new to me though I've had kayaks for 15 years. I started out on lakes, ponds & streams in Vermont just out to look at the wildlife and be alone. I have only fallen over on purpose before. I never needed even re-entry techniques 'cause I was never that far from the shore. I used to say I just wasn't capable of doing anything stupid enough to capsize, which was and is perfectly true on flat water. (I've been in boats of all sorts since the age of 4) but now... now the ocean! Stayed on the south shore of Boston a few years back and got my first taste of waves. Now we spend a month each summer there. I have gotten into water that was too big for my former skill set and carefully taken myself back to shore. This is why I started this thread. I was shocked to hear the Dave Hutchinson quote as I know how clever the ocean can be... rogue waves, deflected or concentraited winds and all. Things my dad taught me never leave - PFDs are NOT optional - It's only fun if you get to come back and tell about it! Thanks for all the great posts and input. It has improved my concentration during rolling practice (and added edging and bracing to the exercise). Cheers, je The world revolves around engineers...only because they choose to pick their own coordinate origin. ------------------------------------- janellen_at_harriman4.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 19 May 2004 at 15:50, John Fereira wrote: > Whitewater kayaker have rescue option that might not be available to > sea kayakers and sea kayakers have self rescue options that are > typically not appropriate in whitewater conditions. Those differences > are generally dictated by the conditions in which each in paddling. > > Assuming someone capsizes while paddling class II-III whitewater, > doesn't roll, and comes out of their boat. In that case, the swimmer > basically floats/swims until they reach a spot on the river where it > is safe to stand up and can pull their boat out (and collect the rest > of their gear). This represents a pretty dangerous activity. A swimmer in WW is at a greater risk than someone in a boat. Rocks, keepers, leg and arm entrapment and a whole assortment of other risks are real and should be avoided. > an assisted t-rescue just takes too long and would be very difficult in > pretty much anything class II and above. I haven't done much WW, but I've never exited the kayak. On the few rolls I missed, I got a T-rescue. This in class III. (In fact, one roll I missed was because someone came in to do a T and plowed into my paddle as I tried coming up). I wouldn't downplay the role of the T-rescue in a group of decent WW paddlers. Unlike sea kayakers, they tend to stick together. > It's also worth noting that the majority of sea kayakers are not going > to be paddling in conditions as potentially dangerous as soon as > whitewater paddlers might. We've discussed this in the past. Sea kayakers may not plan on rough conditions, but that doesn't prevent them from happening. I've had to deal with terrified paddlers just because of a little wind and wave action. If they knew how to roll, it goes without saying they'd have learned to deal with this - their fear, after all, was that they'd tip over. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
je wrote: > I've been reading too many forums and archives on the Net and have > read several people dismissing the roll as a real life self recovery > technique. I'm working on rolling - I can do it now just need to > get reliable with it. > > So real life - packed for a day trip or a weekend - did you ever fall > over, roll up and keep going? > > Cheers, > je Learn to roll, it is a lot of fun. Practice rescues too. I only fell over in my Dagger Cortez in the surf. At that time I did not have a roll. In white water I fall over often and roll up about 50% of the time. Still Learning My Skills -- Pete Cragg DVM Troop 889, Former Scoutmaster Venture Crew 911, Adviser Avid Touring and White Water Paddler *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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