Matt Asked (snip): >However, I'm still curious about why Doug wrote that kayaks are sluggish in fresh water. If you are reading this Doug, please let us know.< Matt, I think it must be one of those long-held notions I inherited from the early eighties, probably derived from comments by self-proclaimed experts and some personal experience. I certainly haven't noticed much difference these days, but back when my Nordkapp was still relatively lightweight, I remember comparing fresh water experiences against saltchuck one's. My Nordkapp increases considerably in waterline length fully loaded, and I seem to remember feeling slower in fresh water. I don't recall much difference when comparing the two different water types in the kayak, unloaded. This is all very subjective. With that in mind, plus the fact flat lake water just seems to be a slower grind, probably contributed to my view point. After my post, I figured anyone who wanted to correct my notion would speak up. See, we even got Peter to wade into the discussion after a long dry spell on Paddlewise, whereupon he just gushered out. ;-) However, I still hesitate at the thought of heavily loaded kayaking on fresh water, and can't totally dispel that notion as unscientific as it is. I guess it's like buying an expensive stereo - why bother if the cheaper one sounds just as good to your ears. But, if the subtitles are noticeable to the individual, then do as you wish. I'll take the saltchuck. Maybe Joshua can set me up paddling the Dead Sea. Might make my heavy Nordkapp feel buoyant again. :-) Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 19 May 2004 at 20:00, Doug Lloyd wrote: > plus the fact flat lake water just > seems to be a slower grind, probably contributed to my view point. It definitely does if there is no wind and waves. I always feel sluggish in such conditions, even though I know it's an illusion. I always say it's better to paddle in wind and waves just because you feel you're getting somewhere (even though you might be going slower!) The worst is flat and calm with high heat and humidity - when you don't particularly feel like going fast. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael wrote: - >It definitely does if there is no wind and waves. >I always feel sluggish in such conditions, even >though I know it's an illusion. G'Day Michael and Paddlewise, Are you certain its always an illusion? What is happening to the wave energy in a slightly choppy sea (not a following sea)? Is it possible that waves of a certain height and period reduce the drag on a hull? My reading of the literature can only find descriptions of drag increase due to energy loss from the prime mover in a boat, i.e. due to the energy required for the boat to create waves or turbulence. I hesitate to quote experiences in a kayak as they have no validity in a technical explanation! But of course I'm going to:~) Anyway I notice in slightly choppy water I can readily paddle a sit on top, as fast as the fastest sea kayak we have over here. The fastest sea kayak we have in Australia is something called a Mirage - ironic name considering the nature of my question! All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter, If there was something about waves that reduced drag on the hull then you would expect the same conditions that let you paddle the SOT as fast as the other kayaks would also make the other kayaks faster so you would then not be able to keep on in the SOT. Unless you are going the same direction as the waves (i.e. occasionally surfing) the waves are going to increase drag on the boat. However, this effect will be more pronounced on some hull shapes than others. So it is possible that the SOT is not slowed down as much as another boat in certain conditions. I suspect the reason boats feel more sluggish on flat water is the lack of reference points for speed. In rough water there are always new waves approaching so even if you are dead in the water you get the illusion of motion. I'm sure many people have spent time paddling against a head wind and felt like they are doing OK until the look at a landmark only to find it hasn't moved. Nick On May 21, 2004, at 5:56 AM, PeterO wrote: > Michael wrote: - >> It definitely does if there is no wind and waves. >> I always feel sluggish in such conditions, even >> though I know it's an illusion. > What is happening to the wave energy in a slightly choppy sea (not a > following sea)? Is it possible that waves of a certain height and > period > reduce the drag on a hull? > <snip> > I hesitate to quote experiences in a kayak as they have no validity in > a > technical explanation! But of course I'm going to:~) Anyway I notice in > slightly choppy water I can readily paddle a sit on top, as fast as the > fastest sea kayak we have over here. > > The fastest sea kayak we have in Australia is something called a > Mirage - > ironic name considering the nature of my question! Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick wrote >I suspect the reason boats feel more sluggish >on flat water is the lack of reference points >for speed. In rough water there are always new >waves approaching so even if you are dead in the >water you get the illusion of motion. G'Day Nick and all, Thanks for the explanation. My thoughts were somewhat influenced by a tour in a Japanese factory where they had yards of vibrating troughs to transport and manipulate electronic parts along a production line. Suspect its not a good analogy and seems like I must consign my wave enhanced speed theory to the dustbin of many illusions along with: - - the feeling of paddling down a sloping wall of water when facing a bay with hills behind it - the sense that paddling home is safer than paddling away from home - the illusion that a wet suit and sunglasses with a lens missing are suitable for five star seaside restaurants - polishing my boat will make it go faster - Kleppers are the fastest kayak in Australia provided you have a 30knot tail wind - Mirages are the fastest kayak in Australia next to Kleppers in a 30knot tail wind All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike said (snip): >It definitely does if there is no wind and waves. I always feel sluggish in such conditions, even though I know it's an illusion. I always say it's better to paddle in wind and waves just because you feel you're getting somewhere (even though you might be going slower!)< Can't remember what I posted last week on this subject. I was pretty out of it there for a week or more. I did notice on the news a while back a reference to a trawler that capsized just off the Fraser River delta: something about the boat being overloaded and when it transited from salt water to fresh water the boat got into trouble, but I haven't heard any follow up (other than the political fallout from the fact that the coast guard weren't allowed to send in rescue divers into the upturned hull due to some Worker's compensation rule - people were trapped inside, including children). Fresh or saltwater, I don't care, I'll paddle anything, as long as there are waves/swell/wind. I just happen to be surrounded by maritime waters. If my health continues to improve dramatically as it has suddenly this past couple of days (finger's crossed), I'm gonna be all over it very soon. I may even paddle on some flat water just to be different; but no lakes, which are overrun with rowing shell participants, Geese poop, weeds, water skiers, wobbly mums and dads in canoes, swimmers, training marathon racers, fisherman, cottage noises, parking lot crime, and nudists. Did I mention I prefer the saltchuck. :-) On a different note, there were two marine incidents worth reporting. A couple of old guys sunk their open boat while pulling up crab traps and spent a few cold minutes in the water before a private vessel rescued them. Due to age, they were rushed to hospital with hypothermia. No lifejackets were being worn. It was the first time the coasties issued a specific addendum to the news report in recent memory, pleading with small boaters to wear their PFD's, etc. The second incident was off Sooke waters, with the hapless boaters drifting half the night, eventually toward Cape Flattery. They had no spare supplies aboard and only a CB radio. They made a "Mayday" broadcast on the CB, but were ridiculed by local radio clubbies as hoax initiators. Finally, a CB enthusiast on the American side believed they were in distress, and called in the rescue request. I think the vessel owner now says he will be investing in a marine VHF. Doug Lloyd (who prefers it salty and sloppy) Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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