Anyone on this forum have an opinion on a decent boat for shallow rivers (read rock scratches), mostly grade 1-3, and small lakes? I'm seeing a lot of recreational boats that are so wide that they aren't as much fun to paddle, but white water boats don't work well crossing small lakes. Maybe no such animal exists, but if you have an idea, I'm open to hearing it. Our regular boats are too long for rivers, and too valuable to chance the rocks and sticks on the bottom. Thanks, Steve M *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Try Crossover: http://www.dagger.com/product.asp?BoatType=TourKayak&BoatStatus=DC&BoatID=19 9 . This is not a recreational boat. Not too wide, not too long, has a skeg and one hatch. Listed as Discontinued, though. No personal experience. > Anyone on this forum have an opinion on a decent boat for shallow rivers > (read rock scratches), mostly grade 1-3, and small lakes? I'm seeing a lot > of recreational boats that are so wide that they aren't as much fun to > paddle, but white water boats don't work well crossing small lakes. Maybe no > such animal exists, but if you have an idea, I'm open to hearing it. Our > regular boats are too long for rivers, and too valuable to chance the rocks > and sticks on the bottom. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Prijon Yukon Expedition: http://www.brown-web.net/kayak/Reviews/yukon-expedition/Yukon-Expedition.htm Steve Brown -----Original Message----- Anyone on this forum have an opinion on a decent boat for shallow rivers (read rock scratches), mostly grade 1-3, and small lakes? I'm seeing a lot of recreational boats that are so wide that they aren't as much fun to paddle, but white water boats don't work well crossing small lakes. Maybe no such animal exists, but if you have an idea, I'm open to hearing it. Our regular boats are too long for rivers, and too valuable to chance the rocks and sticks on the bottom. Thanks, Steve M *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks for the suggestions. Is the Dagger Crossover similar to the Dagger Blackwater ( http://www.dagger.com/product.asp?link=recthumb )? It appears the Crossover is discontinued. Steve M *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Thanks for the suggestions. Is the Dagger Crossover similar to the Dagger > Blackwater ( http://www.dagger.com/product.asp?link=recthumb )? Similar in length and width, but with larger cockpit, without skeg, without straps over the hatch lid, and (I guess) lacking reinforcing elements peculiar to ww boats. Hull shape and maneurability may differ too. They list it as a recreational. Prijon Yukon Expedition appeals more than Blackwater for partly flat / partly ww paddling. It 's length is unusual for a ww river boat, though. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"alex" <al.m_at_3web.net> wrote: >> Thanks for the suggestions. Is the Dagger Crossover similar to the >> Dagger Blackwater ( http://www.dagger.com/product.asp?link=recthumb >> )? > >Similar in length and width, but with larger cockpit, without skeg, >without straps over the hatch lid, and (I guess) lacking reinforcing >elements peculiar to ww boats. Hull shape and maneurability may differ >too. The Blackwater is an inch or so wider (and comes in various lengths, the last I saw), and definitely feels more sluggish the last time I paddled one. The ones I've seen did have a skeg, in the form of a metal plate in a slot at the stern which can be raised and lowered from the cockpit. The Crossover's skeg, on the other hand, requires the venerable technique of getting out of the boat, walking to the stern, unscrewing the plastic skeg and reversing it, then screwing it back on. Oh, and empty the water out while you've got it off. The Blackwater is fitted out as a recreational boat while the Crossover has Dagger's somewhat better white-water-style seat backband and thigh braces. I'm sorry to see the Crossover go, but I can't say it surprises me---it's a nice recreational boat, but it was expensive for a rec boat. >They list it as a recreational. Prijon Yukon Expedition appeals more >than Blackwater for partly flat / partly ww paddling. It 's length is >unusual for a ww river boat, though. Tommy McGuire *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve McBride <drsm_at_direcway.com> asked: >>>>>>Anyone on this forum have an opinion on a decent boat for shallow rivers (read rock scratches), mostly grade 1-3, and small lakes? I'm seeing a lot of recreational boats that are so wide that they aren't as much fun to paddle, but white water boats don't work well crossing small lakes. Maybe no such animal exists, but if you have an idea, I'm open to hearing it. Our regular boats are too long for rivers, and too valuable to chance the rocks and sticks on the bottom.<<<<<<<< I've been pretty disappointed in most plastic Rec boats. A few years back after testing dozens of them at a symposium I liked paddling the little inflatable Sterns K-116 (the one with the little skeg, not the WW version of the same name) better than most of the plastic Rec boats then on the market. Probably, I liked it better because it was far better than I had expected from a little inflatable and the Rec boats didn't come anywhere close to what I thought they could be. Lately, some Rec boats have gotten lots better. I thought the Dagger Catalyst 13.0 and Element 11.2 were good representatives of what a Rec kayak could be (among plastic kayaks their respective lengths). Both turned very quickly with a lean (8 & 6 sec.) but tracked relatively okay when level (12 & 9 sec.). The Crossover didn't turn any faster than the Element (6 sec.) but tracked about as well (7 sec.) as an old whitewater kayak (in other words, it didn't). [Note: the ratio of tracking (level) to turning (leaned) times has more to do with ones perception of tracking ability than the raw level turning numbers do]. I never expected a lot of speed out of a Rec kayak, but most I've tried chugged and churned up the water at anywhere near their hull speed (which because of their short length is very easy to get to so anyone wanting to get somewhere is likely to be pushing them that fast). The Catalyst and the Element were much cleaner through he water than most kayaks their same size. I found the Prijon Yukon Expedition to also not track at all well when level (10 sec.) but not turn much faster (7 sec.) than the Catalyst when leaned (it also had a very strong weather helm). Prijon's 14-6 long x 25.5" wide Calabria could be turned almost as quickly when leaned (7.5 sec.) but tracked very well when level (15 sec.). That is a nice combination for a short touring kayak I wrote in my notes about the Calabria: nice kayak except for weather helm & my size 12 feet snag on recessed deck fittings when using the rudder. The rudder or the quick response to a leaned turn could both be used to correct the weather helm). The Yukon Expedition could turn a leaned 180 only 1/2 second faster (7 sec.) but didn't track nearly as well when level (10 sec.). Note: my timed results for plastic kayaks often vary when retested due to the differing shapes of the "same" plastic kayaks (even when new and they came out of the same mold). I almost always get the same turning numbers with fiberglass kayaks of the same model (unless there is some confounding, like the design was changed but the name remained, or there was a large difference in water temperatures between the tests). I'd advise anyone buying a plastic kayak to either test paddle the very kayak you will purchase or get a guarantee from the seller that you will that feel it paddles the same as the demo kayak you tried and liked (or else you can return it within a reasonable period). After purchase your job is to try not to distort it into some new shape. Hot days and roof racks can both take their toll on soft plastic kayaks but the combination can make major changes to their shape (and likely how deep the keels will be in the water the next time you use it). Among polyethylene kayaks the Prijon's are probably the least likely to get distorted later because they use a little stiffer plastic (that requires a different molding process). Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I own 2 Crossovers, one of which is currently for sale. Discontinued in the Dagger line-up, Perception now sells it under the name Enduro. Same boat sans the hurricane hatch cover. The Blackwater (we'll consider the Blackwater 12.5 here), is more rec boat with its bigger cockpit and flat bottom. The Crossover has a hull designed for low end white water. The Crossover is comfortable in Class II waters and will run Class III with a competent paddler. It is NOT a boat to play in holes with, more a river runner. The Blackwater is a better flatwater boat as it tracks better and the drop down skeg is operable from the cockpit. The Crossover skeg requires one to unscrew it and remount it. You either have to put out to do so or have a partner do it for you. I consider the Crossover skeg an emergency device only. It does assist tracking when paddling the windy flatwaters but I never use it in the rivers. Both boats need a new butt band and bow flotation. The Crossover has a nice pillar support under the fore deck to avoid entrapment, thus it uses split air bags. The Blackwater uses a single large bow bag. While the two boats appear similar, the hull shapes are quite different. The Blackwater has higher primary stability but the Crossover will run circles around it in the secondary plane. The Crossover provides an amazingly dry ride through Class IIs and the cockpit allows for an effective skirt fitment. The Crossover rolls very nicely while the Blackwater is more work to bring up. The Blackwater is also harder to stay in with the large cockpit opening. I use my Crossovers on western rivers (U.S.), and they work great for overnighters. Kind of like the Hummer of the kayak world. Diversion dams that I portage my sea kayak around are simply a high point when paddling the Crossover. While I adore all my boats, if I were limited to but one kayak it would be either a Crossover or the Prijon Expedition. Jacks of all trades while masters of none! Pleasant waters to you. ~~Holmes Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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