Re:[Paddlewise] Nadgee, Max, Boat Copying

Peter asked:
<Snip>>>>>>I have wondered, when
looking at the lines shown in Sea Kayaker reviews, whether the line drawings
are deliberately fudged to make it harder to copy the designs
reviewed.<<<<<<Snip>

No, but before this happened I did tell Chris at Sea Kayaker that the line
drawings they publish could be used that way. The reason the hard chines
didn't show up as hard as they actually were was that they would require a
lot more measuring points when they map the boats surface near the chines to
get the chines to show up as real hard edged. They already have several
extra near places where there are rapid changes in shape.

>>>>>>>No doubt you get peeved at imitators who trade on your efforts. On
the other
hand, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Why keep good ideas under
wraps?<<<<<<<<

Because one person does the work and the copy-cat takes that work and
enriches himself at the original designers expense. Had this happened in the
same market as I'm selling kayaks in I'd be a lot more upset because then
I'd be having to compete with my own hull design against the crook who took
all the short-cuts at my expense rather than his.

>>>>>>There is a question of degree. If someone looks at a Mariner, thinks
the general scheme is good, then designs another swede form boat with a
bloated V-bow and hard chines and a keel line at the stern, at what point is
it an unacceptable rip-off?<<<<<<<

I have no problem whatsoever with anyone who wants to try to make a kayak
much like one we have designed. In fact, this has happened several times
that I know of and many more that I suspect. Looking at them I'd guess that
the Tempests may have been influenced in several ways by our preexisting
designs, but I have absolutely no problem with that (if it was the case) as
long as the designer didn't take our very design (or a boat) as the basis to
start making the modifications from. Splashing a hull (taking a mold off
someone else's boat) without permission is the worst rip-off as it is the
easiest to do.  Splashing a hull that has been modified in easy ways before
making a mold from it is as bad and possibly even more devious if the
changes are cosmetic and designed to hide the fact it is a rip-off. Mapping
the shape and making an identical shape from scratch takes more work but is
still a rip-off of the original designer because it produces a nearly
identical shape and avoids a major part of the design work that would have
been required starting from scratch. Taking someone else's plans (or the
cross sections from a publication such as Sea Kayaker) and building and
selling a kayak from those plans without the designer's permission is also a
rip-off even if some modifications to those plans are made. Liking someone's
design and using some of the features of that design in a new design that
was created from scratch is flattery. I have no problem with the later
especially if the designer admits what influenced them. What makes it a
rip-off is when the design and building process is short-cutted by using
someone else's hard work and education and then acting as if it is one's own
design (including selling it) because one made a few changes to the
original.
The distribution of volume in a kayak is one of the major determiners of its
performance (and I mean performance in the overall handling sense, John--not
just the hull drag sense you have interpreted this to mean in the past).
Changing the deck or making changes to the bow and stern may disguise the
rip-off from the casual observer but if the hull remains identical the
handling has been ripped off from the original. The handling can be easily
tweaked by adding or taking away a little from the keel but the distribution
of volume is the work of the original designer and has still been
ripped-off. Most builder's don't know much about design so they buy someone
else's design in the form of plans or a kit to build. The designer gets
compensated for their efforts that way. Unfortunately, that same lack of
ability is also the case for many who seek to be kayak builders in the
market place. Sure they could hire a designer or pay them royalties for
their designs but why bother when all you have to do is splash a well
respected design and then make a few cosmetic changes and call yourself the
designer (and keep the royalties). Those who do this are not hull designers
they are crooks.


 >>>>>>I'm not uncomfortable with the Nadgee being
developed from lines published in Sea Kayaker, if that is what happened. Was
any legal protection of the shape claimed when published in the magazine?
There is no mention of such claims in any SK boat reviews I have seen. On
the face of it, the shape is out there available to copy.<<<<<

The magazine was copyrighted so taking the drawing and blowing it up to full
size was a direct violation of the copyright law. The goal of the Nadgee
builder was to have the hull be as close as possible to the Max (which had a
spectacular review in Sea Kayaker and also by a friend of the builder who
had paddled it). When the friend saw the prototype of the Nadgee made from
the Sea Kayaker "plans" he told the builder that the Max had considerably
harder chines. The chines were then modified to make them like the Max's.
The Max shape was taken as closely as possible and them modified to make it
even closer to the original. But even if the shape had been taken and then
modified to be different than the original in several ways it would still
have been a rip-off.


 >>>>There was a boat reviewed in Sea Kayaker which bore some resemblances
to
Mariner boats, the "Synergy" by Northwest Kayaks, (April 2001 SK.) What do
you think of that boat?<<<

In the 15 minutes or so that I have paddled it on flat water I can say I
like several things about it. It was very responsive to a leaned turn. It is
interesting that you should notice the resemblance. The "designer" was also
the owner of the company that we contracted with for many years (to use our
molds to build the main hull and deck parts of our kayaks). Once during a
local safety symposium in the 1980's there was a "designer's forum" where
the audience asked questions of the half dozen or so kayak designers in
attendance. To one question asked of all the designers: "How do you
determine what to do to make your sea kayak designs" this person answered
"Matt and Cam (Mariner Kayaks) are the best kayak designers in the industry.
I look at what they do and then I do like that." If that isn't an exact
quote it is damn close. He also knew which kayaks were our best sellers so
he knew which ones to imitate first. For his first sea kayak design he took
the mold of a kayak we had designed for him (for royalties) and filled it
with foam making the basis for a new plug. We could tell it was taken from
one of two of our designs but he had made some major changes to it with a
chain saw (v-keel) and reshaped the bow. I didn't figure out how he did it
until years later he asked to use one of our molds to fill with foam to make
easily modified shape for a "new" design. I asked if that was what had
caused some damage to the Escape mold years before. He assured me that
hadn't been the cause of the damage. We turned down his request. Most of his
other design's tried to imitate our designs as well, but, as far as I know,
they were started from scratch by building his own plug. Some were better
imitations than others. Actually, while we weren't thrilled about this form
of flattery (by a competitor) we were less disturbed when he did a pretty
good job with the imitations than when he totally blew it. One kayak looked
so much like one of ours that most people couldn't tell the difference when
they looked at it. Since it paddled so poorly it ended up costing both us
and, by extension, our builder many sales of our Coaster design (which at
the time was our best seller) because people were told that it was "just
like a Coaster" and at first believed it (since it looked just like it too).
That is what the retailer who demanded it from the builder wanted it to be
"just like a Coaster" (when he could no longer retail the Coaster). Unfortun
ately, the Sportee wasn't "just like a Coaster" but it took several years
for it to sink into oblivion. In the mean time many who tried the Sportee
wouldn't later try a Coaster because they thought it was the same (if they
weren't told that they could see by looking at it that it looked almost
identical). One potential customer, who from his description of what he was
looking for, I figured needed a Coaster, had just tried a Sportee out next
door and told me he liked it the least of the six kayaks he had just tried.
As a result he was not interested in the Coaster I had suggested he consider
at all and wasn't even going to bother trying it. I finally asked him if he
would try it for me "just to see if he could feel any differences at all
between them". An hour later the guy bought a Coaster. I suspect in the long
run the Sportee cost the builder more money than he made from it because as
a result he didn't build as many Coasters for us as he would have had he not
tried to make a look alike. As much as it looked like a Coaster and had
basically the same major dimensions it was a kayak that was built from
scratch from a design made from plugging the Coaster's main dimensions into
a computer program. I didn't like what happened but it wasn't a rip-off by
my definition. However, we can do without that kind of flattery. The "just
like a Coaster" was certainly false advertising (if maybe based on false
hope) by the retailer and in the end as word got out about the boat he had
probably burned his reputation some because of it.

I wrote:
"I got a chance to paddle the (privately owned) Nadgee that I first saw the
year before. I was surprised at how much difference there actually was in
the handling (relative to what I had expected, because they look so
similar). The Nadgee is much stiffer tracking than the Max when level
(31sec. 180 turn vs. 21 sec.) and somewhat slower turning when leaned up
enough so water is not quite yet on the spraydeck (12 sec. 180 turn vs. 9
sec.). There just wasn't the same sportiness and this would likely also make
the Nadgee harder to turn up into a high wind than the Max, especially for a
less skilled paddler who is unwilling to lean it much while turning."

Peter wrote:
>>>>>>>Sportiness = ease of turning?<<<<<

No, responsiveness to the paddle and edging would be more how I'd define
that.

>>>>>>This whets my appetite to paddle a Max and compare it with the Nadgee.
Could
you send a demo boat over asap, not the sliding seat version? ;-). First
guess as to the reason for the difference is less rocker than the Max. I
haven't had any unacceptable problem turning into wind, so far.
This afternoon I tested turning the Nadgee by turning it as hard as
possible, giving it everything to get around. On flat water it goes
around with one extended paddle reverse sweep turn, edged and leaned, around
to about 120 -130 degrees with one stroke, needing a further sweep to
get it the whole 180 degrees. That turn takes under 12 - 13 seconds mostly,
but 9 seconds at best. The method of timing is something I had to run a few
times to get consistency. The time depends on when you count the turn as
starting. If you count from deciding to initiate the turn, the time is 1 - 2
seconds slower than if the turn is counted as starting when the paddle hits
the water and starts to turn the boat. Because of these subjective
differences, the timing comparisons for a particular paddler may
be meaningful, but comparisons between different paddlers trialling boats
would be less useful. I found it hard to turn without leaning and edging, so
I couldn't really get the flat turn time.<<<<<<<<

Because different paddlers use different techniques, and also differ in
weight and strength, what I get and someone else gets for the same kayak are
also going to differ. I'm using a 180 degree turn at speed starting just a
split second before planting the paddle for the first stroke of the sweep. A
distant object (or the sun and my head's shadow) are my guides to doing a
180. All strokes are on the same side (and forward strokes) and I start from
a cruising speed. In one test I keep the kayak on an even keel the whole
time I'm turning it . In the other I'm leaning it as far as I dare without
water pouring into the cockpit (if I didn't have on a spraydeck on). The
kayak is kept at this lean throughout the turn. I also spin the kayaks in
place through 360 degrees, both leaned and level. The leaned turn and spin
are also done with the rudder or skeg in the full down position if the kayak
has one. I've done this for over 750 different kayak hulls so far (and have
all the results on four spreadsheets--North American, foreign, wood, and
skin boats) so I have a lot of practice at it and have often retested the
same hull to see if I am consistent. If I think their was any glitch in my
technique during a test I try it again to see if the results differ. The
leaned 180 turns tell me the most about how quickly a kayak can turn. The
ratio of that number with the level turn time tells me the most about how
well a kayak tracks. The raw time for a level turn mostly tells me how hard
the kayak is to turn if the paddler won't lean it (as many less skilled
paddlers won't when the wind is high). Some long kayaks can be hard to turn
and also track poorly. Some short kayaks can turn easily and still be very
good trackers as well. Responsiveness (as I define it) is a factor in how
easy it is to get the kayak back on course if something has diverted you
somewhat from that course. When I'm at my shop on Lake Union I also run a
sprint test down a fixed course. I record the month and year of the test so
I can make water temperature corrections. BTW, my 360 degree spin in place
times (alternating one sweep forward with one back sweep) were 19 sec.
leaned and 25 sec. level for the Max. For the Nadgee they were 36 sec. and
38 sec.  I'd say the difference is partly because some keel was probably
added to the Max design ripped off of the Sea Kayaker review and because the
Max templates were stretched a bit further apart and narrowed (not blown up
quite as big) a bit. That made a longer  kayak that sank the keel deeper in
the water with the same weight added.
After I retire, and that could be pretty soon, I might publish the data from
all these tests (and data on the over 3000 kayaks I have dimensions and
company information for) on the web in some form.

>>>>>>Did you like the colour scheme of Drew's boat? Copied from another
boat!<<<<<

Who is Drew?

If anyone would like to see a picture of the Nadgee hull to compare it with
the vertical XL hull (pictured in the XL page in the "Kayaks" pickbox on our
website) please e-mail me back channel and I'll attach one to the return.

Matt Broze
www.marinerkayaks.com
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