PeterO wrote: > I was just reminded of a debate on seam strength some years ago. Would the > strength of the bond between a fully cured deck and a fully cured hull be > adequate for a sea kayak? i.e could it be made as strong as a well made join > between a partially cured deck and hull? Yes. Granting the proper technique and adhesive. We used to do this in the racing sailboat business with success. I raced a Flying Dutchman for several years built this way. I also built some ocean racing sailboats this way. Colin Calder wrote; > Do you think it's a copy? > Is it the same size? And is it the same shape? And do the parameters chosen > to define size and shape (no matter how sophisticated, who thought them up, > when they were thought up, where they were thought up) amount to any more > than increasing detail, and if so where do you stop!!!! You stop when you think you have sufficiently convinced the judge (or jury) of your claim. :-) > How many commercial kayaks share similar design parameters? I suspect not a lot. Just the copies. Out of over forty designs I have only seen three commercial copies of my boats. Two from the same builder. > Is there more to a kayak than the hullform? (clearly, IMHO) Yes, deck form for example. I can't speak for other designers but I consider the hull the primary determinant of performance so I don't worry if someone copies deck details. > Are the supposedly objective measures of quantitative engineering design the > only way of looking at this? - I think so. I know of no one who can quantify personal opinion to any degree of accuracy. The feel you notice is precisely that, "The feel you notice". Others may not notice it or may notice something else. Here I want to lapse into a story to explain. Years ago a builder of a canoe of my design took two boats to a canoe symposium Both made from the same mold and of the same laminate. One had a white hull and aluminium trim. The other a red hull and wood trim. We told some highly experienced paddlers that the boats differed slightly and asked for their input as to which hull design we should use. They all paddled the boats doing various maneuvers etc. All said without exception that the red boat was more responsive and faster. For every paddler who says he can detect a difference I feel sure we can find one who can't. Who would we believe? > Is one person's sleazebag tactics another person's legitimate design > methodology? There are after all a number of ways to skin a cat, as it were, > and a long history of boats evolving from previous designs no matter who > drew them. That is why we often have to resort to legal remedies. Sad but true. Determinng the difference between evolution and design theft does pose a lot of problems as we have seen in this list. We won't solve those problems by ignoring them. I doubt if Matt or Nick would ever copy one of my designs (and vice versa) because they have enough confidence in their abilities and enough knowledge to create competitive designs using their own ideas. > But really does it matter? I think this needs a value judgement, not just a > quantitative measurement. If I was going to buy into a mariner, or > guillemot design or John Winter's design I would want to buy into the boat > and the experience of the designer and quality of design produced (which > could be copied granted), but also the authenticity of the design - a copy > no matter how close a facsimile would still be a copy. Who wants a fake > Rolex? I think most designers like that approach but not all buyers are quite so perceptive or care. Cheers John Winters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Peter Treby" <ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au> > Maybe in the USA, but in Australia, the example you give is quite beyond any > likely outcome in a court. There are so many contributing factors to a kayak > death or accident that it would be a brave plaintiff's lawyer who tried this > one. I think you haven't seen the "law" at work in California: http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/stories/2004/02/02/editorial3.html Heck, the lawyers here don't even need a victim to file and collect. Progress is being made, though. This will be on the ballot for California in the fall election (the people had to by-pass the courts and CA state legislature and take it to the voting booth... ) "Small biz needs relief from shakedown suits" http://www.stopshakedownlawsuits.com/alerts/calltoaction_070804.html What this was about.... http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/legal_issues/legal_updates/other_noteworthy_cases/trevor_law_group.html Still, I wouldn't own a small business selling anything to the public in California... whether I was a U.S. citizen or not. > Boat designers should not lose sleep worrying about such far fetched > possibilities. Here, for example, is a case of sound judicial reasoning > rejecting an injury claim at a sports event: > http://www.ieabrokers.com.au/crowdcontroljuly2004.pdf Courts are not a > pushover for any claim to get through, and appeals courts fix up rubbish. > The Liebeck / McDonalds coffee spill case is so often used as an example of > a supposedly frivolous claim succeeding, that it would be as well for you to > look at the facts which persuaded the jury, say here: > http://www.kentlaw.edu/classes/rbrill/TORTS-FALL2002/evening/sup_mat/coffee.html > Read that and see if you still suffer the same litigation paranoia. > Cheers, PT I'm not paranoid. I don't own a small business dealing with the public. Cheers, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "Peter Treby" <ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au> > Jackie: The examples you gave of shakedown suits > as at > http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/stories/2004/02/02/editorial3.html > seem to be a particular problem in California, not > a widespread situation, thankfully. Frivolous lawsuits are a problem in more states than just California. The method referenced here is unique to California because of a state code (17204). > Reading these > examples, I wondered why the small businesses > threatened with frivolous actions, or their > insurers, don't just get some spine and stare down > the threat. It takes more than spine. It takes a lot of money and often these small businesses don't have it. In the U.S., a frivolous lawsuit can be thrown out of court without the plaintiff having to compensate for the costs to either the court or the defendent. The cost to the pro bono plaintiff's lawyer is his/her own time and filing fees. However, the defendent must pay attorneys' fees to fight the claim which can and sometimes does bring tremendous financial burden to the defendent. > Hopefully this situation is not > directly related to any kayak manufacturer or > retailer in California. > Have you heard of anyone > involved in the commercial side of canoes/kayaks > facing a "shakedown" suit? Here's the law: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/bpc/17200-17210.html 17204. Actions for any relief pursuant to this chapter shall be prosecuted exclusively in a court of competent jurisdiction by the Attorney General or any district attorney or by any county counsel authorized by agreement with the district attorney in actions involving violation of a county ordinance, or any city attorney of a city, or city and county, having a population in excess of 750,000, and, with the consent of the district attorney, by a city prosecutor in any city having a full-time city prosecutor or, with the consent of the district attorney, by a city attorney in any city and county in the name of the people of the State of California upon their own complaint or upon the complaint of any board, officer, person, corporation or association or by any person acting for the interests of itself, its members or the general public. Pretty amazing, huh. Easy to be a target for those out shooting at targets. > Are shakedown suits > possible anywhere else in the US? Depends on your meaning of shakedown. Frivolous lawsuits are filed throughout the U.S. in the hopes the defendent will settle out of court (concession could be monetary or other) rather than pay the costs associated with fighting it. btw, I've been notified of settlements "in my favor" in more than one class action case where I never sought participation. I've never collected a dime. Maybe it's just me but I don't like being an automatic plaintiff to a lawsuit without my consent. Cheers, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jackie Myers wrote: > The cost to the pro bono plaintiff's lawyer is his/her own time > and filing fees. However, the defendent must pay attorneys' fees > to fight the claim which can and sometimes does bring tremendous > financial burden to the defendent. I'm not a lawyer [thank gods] and I'd really rather be talking about kayaks, but I think you meant "contingency," as in "I get 40% if we win" rather than "pro bono," which is Latin for "I make an obscene amount of money, so I can afford to do a few freebies." -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I'm not a lawyer [thank gods] and I'd really rather be talking about > kayaks, Ditto on both counts :-) > but I think you meant "contingency," as in "I get 40% if we win" > rather than "pro bono," which is Latin for "I make an obscene amount of > money, so I can afford to do a few freebies." You're absolutley correct and there's a HUGE difference. Or usually is, anyhow. Thanks, Steve. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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