Matt posted (snip): >What do Paddlewiser's think? Do you have any other speculations as to why a two time Olympic gold medal winner lost the tug of war to the flipper boat or what would happen in an identical hull race?< The problem is simple: the kayak needs to be paddled by a _Canadian_ Olympic medal winner, try Adam van Koeverden. :-) Doug Lloyd Victoria BC, Canada (where I think we've won at least a few medals, didn't we?). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: "I think they should have a race where the boats have identical hulls that are long enough that their "hull speed" will not be an issue. I'd be surprised if the Mirage propulsion system wins that race but I don't really know what would happen." Should be very easy to check as there is a CLC Mill Creek kayak in the US somewhere with a Mirage drive (plus outriggers and sail rig, which must be easy to delete)! Finding another Mill Creek somewhere nearby would not be impossible, and to have two paddlers, switching back and forth, going along the same distance under similar circumstances should be doable! Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PeterO wrote: >>>>When Greg Barton and Oscar Chalupsky try to pull the flippered boat they use an unsynchronised stroke? So is speed of stroke really a workable strategy?<<<< I asked my informant about this when I first heard the story. He said that Greg and Oscar's strokes were in sync during the tug of war. My theory is that they would do better out of sync as then there wouldn't be that time when both paddles were completely out of the water when the flippers could gain some for ground for free. I think Nick made the best point that the flippers are more efficient at low speeds. I think one of the main reasons is that they never pierce the water's surface and therefore to not allow ventilation (the sucking of air down behind the blade when taking a stroke). this ventilation issue might also be relevant to the Euro/Greenland debate. because the blade does not ever get totally below the surface their is more likely to be ventilation allowing air the get behind it on a powerful stroke. This would hurt it the most during acceleration where nobody seems to disagree that the Greenland doesn't do as well as the Euro (and has been my experience as well). I have experimented with the elbows at the side rotate the torso Greenland stroke and my normal paddling stroke using a GPS and the same Euro paddle and have found that the High stroke is only about .2 mph faster than the low stroke. To me that is good news because the strokes are so different I can switch off and rest my muscles by switching strokes if I'm tiring. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PeterO wrote: >>>>>>> The advertising blurb claims these boats can reach hull speed. This might indicate that the boat in the video has smaller flippers than the one Nick saw or that the boat in the tug of war had larger flippers than the video shows?<<<<<<< I'm sure the flippers were the same. What is most likely is that the wide short Hobie boat doesn't have a very high hull speed. Nick's boat design that had the flippers added has a much higher potential hull speed than the 12' 6" by 30 inch wide Hobie Mirage hull. Apparently something would need to be done with the flippers (longer maybe?) or the gearing (shorter pedal shaft length maybe?) to shift into (or have) a higher gear for faster speeds (with a longer hull). My guess is that there is something inherent in the system that won't allow it to be efficient at high speed or Hobie would have mounted a custom system on a narrow kayak (with outriggers maybe) and they would have challenged Greg to an all out race rather than just a tug-of-war. >>>>>>That leads me to yet another question - How do legs contribute when top kayakers (and even average kayakers like myself) pump them to go faster?<<<<< Pumping the legs allows ones butt to pivot some on the seat and transfer the power from the leg into the stroke. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt wrote, Apparently something would need to be done with the flippers (longer maybe?) or the gearing (shorter pedal shaft length maybe?) to shift into (or have) a higher gear for faster speeds (with a longer hull). My guess is that there is something inherent in the system that won't allow it to be efficient at high speed or Hobie would have mounted a custom system on a narrow kayak (with outriggers maybe) and they would have challenged Greg to an all out race rather than just a tug-of-war. I would like to comment again about the efficiency of the Mirage blades against speed. They have the maximum force and power at stand still, and as speed increases reduce their efficiency since the flexible blade does not bend as much the higher the speed. At standing still it flexes and pushes water backwards with the maximum angle possible given by the resistance against water. When in motion water is passing by and therefore the backblade is moving towards water that moves away and the push against that water is less. There is a limit in which the blades just travel but don't do any pushing. I insist that a race against the Olympic champions Gregg and Oscar, based on full speed at starting line would undoubtedly be won by the kayakers. That is why the test is proposed on the tug-of-war. Best Regards, Rafael Mexico *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi All We are having a discussion in Australia right now and I would welcome your thoughts; 1 - What makes a top or "elite" sea kayak paddler? Long trips (over a certain distance) Fast trips Trips in the worst conditions (over a specific wind or wave or current or temperature or etc.) Number of rolls (both sides) Number and effiency of strokes (across the full range) Number and effiency rescue techniques Ability to play in extreme rock gardens Accuracy of navigation Quality of planning 2 - Is it possible to design an overall ranking system so that you know exactly where you stand? If not an overall system, how about a series of benchmarks? Your thoughts? Ian Dewey Manager - Canoe Education Australian Canoeing *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>We are having a discussion in Australia right now and I would welcome your >thoughts; >1 - What makes a top or "elite" sea kayak paddler? The ability to know their limits, thouroughly understand the situation, and apply sound common sense and good judgement. >2 - Is it possible to design an overall ranking system so that you know >exactly where you stand? If not an overall system, how about a series of >benchmarks? No - even though the ACA and BCU seem to think so. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>We are having a discussion in Australia right now and I would welcome your >thoughts; >1 - What makes a top or "elite" sea kayak paddler? The ability to know their limits, thouroughly understand the situation, and apply sound common sense and good judgement. >2 - Is it possible to design an overall ranking system so that you know >exactly where you stand? If not an overall system, how about a series of >benchmarks? No - even though the ACA and BCU seem to think so. Scott So.Cal. I disagree. I think the BCU Star system is exactly a series of bench-marks, and can apply to either those interested in coaching, and those that just want to assess their own skills as paddlers, and have something to work toward. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> >2 - Is it possible to design an overall ranking system so that you know > >exactly where you stand? If not an overall system, how about a series of > >benchmarks? > > > No - even though the ACA and BCU seem to think so. > > Scott > So.Cal. It isn't that way at all, Scott. The BCU (and, I presume, the ACA) have implemented a training program that is designed to take paddlers through reasonably well described levels of personal skill and sea/weather conditions. Assessments are offered to help paddlers to understand whether they have achieved the described levels of competency, and - whether or not successful - to provide feedback to facilitate further development. Every assessment, whether pass or fail, includes the specification of a personal action plan for that further develpment. In short, the BCU training system is competency-oriented; it is not at all a ranking system. Bob Volin (passed some, failed some) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ian Dewey said: What makes a top or "elite" sea kayak paddler? Is it possible to design an overall ranking system so that you know exactly where you stand? If not an overall system, how about a series of benchmarks? Great questions and the answers will be really helpful to know. My thought on the first question is that it is obvious the answer is "all of the above" qualities listed and more. I know I am a good paddler - I've won races in sprint, slalom, downriver and marathon. I have done expeditions in remote places in bad conditions and done well. I've been rated pretty good as a coach and teacher, having taught for many years at the Madawaska Kanu Centre. And yet the last trip I did, in Maine with eight teens, I still managed to have a situation come up that had not ever happened to me and for which I was rather unprepared. [I was towing a double and as their boat veered, the wind and waves came from the direction opposite to which they were veering and they tipped. Warm water, warm weather, no big deal, but it was humbling to reflect on how I had not anticipated the event.] So I can list all my marvelous qualities as a paddler and still mess up in easy conditions. Which is to say that no matter what tests and trials I have passed, I can still kill you with my negligence, given half a chance. But a more concrete answer is that lots of experience should count for something as well as ongoing training updates. My bias is that paddlers with whitewater and or surf experience will often have better skills because things happen so fast in those environments, but, of course, there are great paddlers who have never seen whitewater. A fuzzy answer is that most people recognize a good paddler when they see one - grace, fluiditiy, balance all show even in benign conditions. And judgement should show up, but not quickly enough to be easy to measure. I have not taken any BCU courses or certifications, but I have that utmost respect for the quality of the BCU upper level instructors and, even more, coaches. I have yet to meet a BCU four or five star paddler who wasn't really solid. Looking forward to other peoples' answers to thse provocative questions! Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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