Jeff posted (snip): >woman who is very athletic and a great paddler/bracer, etc...when she was very inexperienced...was trapped in it underwater...Now she is very uncomfortable going underwater...it inhibits her ability to learn to roll...Anybody have any suggestions on what she could practice in order to get her confidence up and to move away from her fears?< Here's an article from Sea Kayaker with some information: http://www.seakayakermag.com/2003/03April/Entrapment/Entrapment_01.htm A few years ago (okay, decades), I took a week's training with some other Victoria paddlers under the coaching arm of Derek Hutchinson. One of the ladies in our group had great physiological difficulty demonstrating the wet exit (though it was easy for her to physically perform) and much more difficulty with the one particular day's instruction of sculling for support (head had to get wet). From what I remember, we had to learn to scull before learning to roll, so she was immediately handicapped in that sense. There was no sensitivity shown; I'm not sure how she managed with the rest of the course as I forgotten now, I do remember one of the local canoe instructors taking the course with us taking her aside at the pool (we had been on the ocean for all our training) and helping her one-on-one, with the aid of a nose plug. She was eventually able to skull, especially after perfecting the hip snap (I still just use mostly muscle as certain nuances were never explained and I just kept employed what originally worked for me). I think masks were discouraged as too much of an aid at our ad hoc pool sessions following the BCU course. I think the key components in your friend's situation would necessarily include a low stress environment, some intrinsic determination wholly subjective on her part, and someone objectively adept at working with her individually to show her that going underwater is a whole lot of fun. Often, it may take someone of the same gender to court success. My two cents (or dollars, including the article highlighted). :-) Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As one with a bit of fear about being upside down in watery environs.... Personally, I found a pool with clear water, a person dedicated to 'helping' me capsize slowly (easing me into the water), and a snorkel mask were helpful. I know some will scoff at using a mask - those aren't real world conditions. But for this gal the point is getting over the fear. Then work to real world conditions. If the person helping you capsize also has a mask, you can capsize the person, then go under and have a 'chat' with them - keep them calm, show them the loop on their skirt - prevent them from popping too fast. Make make them count fingers with you to ten before popping....then 15...then 20....etc. Of course, dry runs at skirt popping help. People fear the unknown. Talk about things that could cause entrapment - that go through them one by one and knock them down - "shoe laces can be problems"...that is why you have neoprene boots on with no laces". Removing the unknowns is important IMHO. I 'get' the whole fear of capsize - these are my suggestions. Not based on years of teaching or deep thoughts of any kind! K *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:44 PM 8/2/2004 -0500, Keith Wrage wrote: >As one with a bit of fear about being upside down in watery environs.... > >Personally, I found a pool with clear water, a person dedicated to >'helping' me capsize slowly (easing me into the water), and a snorkel mask >were helpful. I know some will scoff at using a mask - those aren't real >world conditions. But for this gal the point is getting over the >fear. Then work to real world conditions. If the person helping you >capsize also has a mask, you can capsize the person, then go under and >have a 'chat' with them - keep them calm, show them the loop on their >skirt - prevent them from popping too fast. Make make them count fingers >with you to ten before popping....then 15...then 20....etc. I have been involved for several years with a local club. It's affiliated with Cornell and it's members are primarily students though anyone in the local community is allowed to join. The club has a dozen or so whitewater kayaks that may be used by club member. As a prerequisite to being allowed to use the clubs kayaks a person must demonstrate two wet exists performed in a calm, effective manner. During the winter I help run the pool sessions for the club where many first timers get into a kayak for the first time so I'm one of a few people that teach and judge wet exits for the club. A couple of years ago there was a woman that was doing her first wet exits and on the first one I don't think her head hit the water before she was pulling the spray skirt loop. I think it took 6-7 attempts before I was satisfied that she wouldn't panic if she capsized unintentionally. Then she told me, "I don't know why this is so hard for me...I'm a lifeguard". I think that those that are have a fear of rolling or being underwater really have a fear of being trapped in the kayak upside down. The guy that usually runs those pool sessions is really good with beginners. One of the things he does is stand next them while they're sitting in their boat and hold their hands for support as they put their head in the water. Then he'll graduate to having them tip over and he'll turn them back upright by twisting the boat back upright. Once they've done their wet exits, instead of turning them loose with a paddle, he'll work them using the side of the pool. He'll have them start working on hip snaps while holding on the side of the pool and ask them to see how long they can hold their breath before coming back up. Once they've played around a bit he'll progress to performing hip snaps off the bow of another boat, to capsizing and performing a bow rescue (as a victim). Once they've done that a few times, and know that they can hip snap back up, he'll ask them to keep their head underwater after they've grabbed the bow of another boat and see how long they can hold their breath before coming up. All of these exercises gradually allow the new kayaker with a fear of being trapped in their kayak to become more and more comfortable being upside down. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Funny you should ask! Just last Thursday I worked with a woman who closely matches your description. We used an approach modeled after a psychological technique called "systematic desensitization." Our method involved lots of talking, lots of time, and "baby steps" (which we discussed and agreed on at each level). We started with me in the water, next to her boat, holding her hand, as she dipped into the water. Of course, we used a very loose spray skirt to begin. Eventually, we got to unassisted wet exits while I stood nearby, and then unassisted wet exits in boats -- using her own spray skirt. We felt so good that for "extra credit" we went to the Eskimo rescue! It took quite a while, but she felt great -- and so did I! Cheers, Bob V > > Anybody have any suggestions on what she could practice in order > to get her > confidence up and to move away from her fears? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 2 Aug 2004 at 15:11, bobvolin_at_optonline.net wrote: > We used an approach modeled after a psychological > technique called "systematic desensitization." Our method > involved lots of talking, lots of time, and "baby steps" (which we > discussed and agreed on at each level). Lots of good advice so far from Bob and the others. My technique is closest to what Bob describes - now I have a fancy name to call it :-). The only thing I'd add is that early in the process, I ask the person how long they can hold their breath. If they don't know, I suggest 30 seconds and they usually agree. Then I discuss what they have to do and keep pointing out that they have 30 seconds to deal with it. I keep reinforcing that idea that they have a lot of time. I usually have them invert and just concentrate on hanging and holding their breath without having to do anything - first time count to five, later to ten... Also, I think that the hand-holding (both physical and figurative) does help - if you just stand there saying that they'll be ok, it's not nearly as comforting as actually holding their hands and maintaining contact. One question to everyone - I find a lot of folks in this situation will practice for a brief time and then want to break - not returning to the practice until the next pool session. I wonder, should I let them stop or encourage them to continue for a few more inverts? I worry that by stopping early they aren't going to reinforce their confidence so much as reinforce their anxiety. At the same time, I worry most about pushing them too much. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
People are different, of course, but I think you can avoid this situation if you can set up a process in which you both discuss and agree on the "baby steps." While this process takes time, I believe that the conversation reinforces confidence and the individual's feeling of being in control -- while at the same time, it provides a physical break which helps to avoid anxiety overload. Patience and a process that keeps the learner in control are key. Bob > One question to everyone - I find a lot of folks in this situation > will practice for a brief time and then want to break - not returning > to the practice until the next pool session. I wonder, should I let > them stop or encourage them to continue for a few more inverts? I > worry that by stopping early they aren't going to reinforce their > confidence so much as reinforce their anxiety. At the same time, I > worry most about pushing them too much. > > Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Anybody have any suggestions on what she could practice in order to get her >confidence up and to move away from her fears? My wife had a problem with cold water on her face while learning to scuba dive. She managed to defeat it by simply hanging out with her mask off in the water. If you could set up a snorkel so that this woman could breath from the air in the kayak and get comfortable upside down it might give her the time she needs to adjust. If she happens to be scuba certified, a buddy bottle or Spare Air might work just as well. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Anybody have any suggestions on what she could practice in order to get her >confidence up and to move away from her fears? Jim said: snip If you could set up a snorkel so that this woman could breath from the air in the kayak and get comfortable upside down it might give her the time she needs to adjust. snip When I first started rolling, I had the same wish: to be able to breath underwater to help conquer my fear. Now I'm glad that I didn't do it. It would have been just another crutch to have to later drop. What I DID use was a dive-mask, so that I could see. Finally, I realized the roll was more about "feel" than anything else. Please tell this frightened woman that rolling is very scary for others, as well. I was petrified! Only repetition got me past it. Then I lost my roll because I was too ninny to practice it consistently. It's a never-ending struggle, as I'm sure many of you know, but I feel the roll is a very important safety skill. About the person who was wondering about making the rolling classes longer? I could never practice more than 4 or 5 rolls at a time, before becoming very nauteous. Also, sometimes it feels good to end when you feel that you are winning, and walk away with a bit of confidence. Sure, it will get trashed later. But at least it gives you the opportunity to feel that you CAN do it, and that feels so good...especially after being scared... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jolie wrote: - >sometimes it feels good to end when you feel >that you are winning, G'Day, Absolutely agree, as well as morale, once the rolls start failing they are just reinforcing inappropriate muscle memory. Two things I haven't heard are i) the importance to morale of wearing enough clothing to be warm under water. ii) The original problem was caused by the trainee not being able to wet exit from the kayak - seems it might be worth focussing on making sure the fear of not being able to wet exit was completely dispersed by practising that one thing over and over first on dry land then in the water. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I agree with two of the three points. One point is the wisdom of not going beyond your physical ability to do the work. Hurting yourself isn't going to make you a better paddler. Some people just can't roll. Some people with various ills just can't do it. That's how it is. You teach your body the feel of the wrong thing to do if you are hurting and avoiding the pain after a few rolls. Build up to enough that your muscle memory is being trained the right way. That is the point in all the repetition, beyond the fun of doing it. Second is that it is really essential to leave feeling successful or your won't come back with confidence. What concerns me is the limit of 4 or 5 rolls. You will need to do a whole bunch of short lessons to really get a solid roll at that rate of repetition if you are anything like me. My roll is not useful if I have to think about it while dealing with another issue, like what it will be like when I get right-side up. The roll must just be there as the next step in the journey. When I started learning I had to keep it down to 20-25 per several hour session or every muscle in my back and shoulder let me know about it. It got easier with practice and now I think 20-25 is "just a few" rolls during a practice session. I stop when I'm tired, bored, or have some place to paddle. I come back and roll a few more times when I'm really tired to be sure I don't have to think about it. I know it is time to quit when it occurs to me once I'm upside down that I really don't have the energy to roll up. Of course I must but . . . About the person who was wondering about making the rolling classes longer? I could never practice more than 4 or 5 rolls at a time, before becoming very nauteous. Also, sometimes it feels good to end when you feel that you are winning, and walk away with a bit of confidence. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Here's my two bits worth. I'm in the (hopefully) final stages of learning to roll (no, not learning the last roll there is to learn, but of learning the first roll there is to learn.) I'm not fearful of being inverted or of wet exiting, but I want to mention another limiting factor on the practice - energy. From reports here and just the looks of it, rolling takes very little energy when done properly. But when done improperly, that's another story. The best thing to happen to me was to have a coach (preferred) or just a non-paddler standing at the bow so I can make a roll attempt and if I don't get the boat under me, I just relax and fall back into the water, tuck WAY forward grasping the hull in the universal "I give up" signal and have them roll me up. Laying on the fore deck makes it easy for them to do. I can breath, discuss what I did wrong, and have another go. Very little energy wasted. I can make a lot more attempts before I am too tired to give it a good try. Maybe one step in the journey would be to get the student comfortable with the coach rolling them 360 while grasping the hull. Then once they decide to stop trying it's only two or three seconds until you are back on the surface. The only extra equipment I use are nose plugs. Any other stuff like breathing tubes would be a big distraction. A mask would be OK if you are a visual learner, but so much is going on outside the range of vision that it might do more harm than good to try and look at it. Carey *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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