Matt: "...(the cross sectional drawings) in Sea Kayaker, but there was one problem with that. Those drawings don't show the chines as hard as they actually are on the Max" That difference is noticeable comparing the line drawings as they appear on your website, with the hull photographs, as you say. I have wondered, when looking at the lines shown in Sea Kayaker reviews, whether the line drawings are deliberately fudged to make it harder to copy the designs reviewed. In fact some boat builders websites and other advertising seem very well arranged to avoid showing enough detail of the lines to allow ripping off. There is a tortured balance between telling the potential boat buyers enough to interest them, and not handing over the blueprints to competitors in what must be a competitive market. > I was joking about collecting royalties. Some people get royalties on kayak designs. I wouldn't think large royalty percentage would be justifiable, although I am not sure what the profit margin is in making a sea kayak. If you look at the Sissons website, http://www.sissonkayaks.co.nz/, there is (or was, I couldn't find it just now), a mention somewhere of royalties paid to use a Nordkapp mould imported to New Zealand from the UK. The design of the Nordkapp has morphed while in NZ. Does that mean royalties should no longer paid as a different boat is now being made? "I contacted the builder [of the Nadgee] and told him that if he planned to do any importing into the US that I wanted the first chance to be the distributor. He said he had more business than he could handle in Australia and had no such plans." Plenty of irony in the situation if it was to occur. No doubt you get peeved at imitators who trade on your efforts. On the other hand, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.Why keep good ideas under wraps? There is a question of degree. If someone looks at a Mariner, thinks the general scheme is good, then designs another swede form boat with a bloated V-bow and hard chines and a keel line at the stern, at what point is it an unacceptable rip-off? I'm not uncomfortable with the Nadgee being developed from lines published in Sea Kayaker, if that is what happened. Was any legal protection of the shape claimed when published in the magazine? There is no mention of such claims in any SK boat reviews I have seen. On the face of it, the shape is out there available to copy. There was a boat reviewed in Sea Kayaker which bore some resemblances to Mariner boats, the "Synergy" by Northwest Kayaks, (April 2001 SK.) What do you think of that boat? Stating that there is no easy automatic legal protection for hull designs doesn't mean being in favour of unacknowledged close imitation. The Nadgee isn't a flop mould taken of one of your boats. There has been plenty of development and testing of a prototype getting it right. I have paddled a test boat which was extensively modified prior to the present Nadgee coming into existence. If the Nadgee makes some changes to the Max, you are free to adopt those changes for those Mariner customers who want them. Even the Nadgee can be improved, believe it or not. I can list my suggested changes, provided a royalty agreement is in place, partner! ;-) "I got a chance to paddle the (privately owned) Nadgee that I first saw the year before. I was surprised at how much difference there actually was in the handling (relative to what I had expected, because they look so similar). The Nadgee is much stiffer tracking than the Max when level (31sec. 180 turn vs. 21 sec.) and somewhat slower turning when leaned up enough so water is not quite yet on the spraydeck (12 sec. 180 turn vs. 9 sec.). There just wasn't the same sportiness and this would likely also make the Nadgee harder to turn up into a high wind than the Max, especially for a less skilled paddler who is unwilling to lean it much while turning." Sportiness = ease of turning? This whets my appetite to paddle a Max and compare it with the Nadgee. Could you send a demo boat over asap, not the sliding seat version? ;-). First guess as to the reason for the difference is less rocker than the Max. I haven't had any unacceptable problem turning into wind, so far. This afternoon I tested turning the Nadgee by turning it as hard as possible, giving it everything to get around. On flat water it goes around with one extended paddle reverse sweep turn, edged and leaned, around to about 120 -130 degrees with one stroke, needing a further sweep to get it the whole 180 degrees. That turn takes under 12 - 13 seconds mostly, but 9 seconds at best. The method of timing is something I had to run a few times to get consistency. The time depends on when you count the turn as starting. If you count from deciding to initiate the turn, the time is 1 - 2 seconds slower than if the turn is counted as starting when the paddle hits the water and starts to turn the boat. Because of these subjective differences, the timing comparisons for a particular paddler may be meaningful, but comparisons between different paddlers trialling boats would be less useful. I found it hard to turn without leaning and edging, so I couldn't really get the flat turn time. Did you like the colour scheme of Drew's boat? Copied from another boat! Cheers, PT *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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