G'Day, Feeling particularly pleased that for the first time in four years I managed to roll instinctively two weeks in a row. Normally I have to think evry step of a roll all the way through. This week it was in the surf and without thinking I went straight into a screw roll when tumbled - normally I use a Pawlatta for preference and have only recently been practising a screw roll. Perhaps there still is muscle memory after 55:~) Anyway my question is this: - if one was setting up an on side roll and tipped into the water with the on side nearest the beach does this make it easier to roll in the surf? i.e is this a position in which the rotational motion of the wave will help one roll up. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Anyway my question is this: - if one was setting up an on side roll and tipped into the water with the on side nearest the beach does this make it easier to roll in the surf? i.e is this a position in which the rotational motion of the wave will help one roll up.< Yes. Rolling up into a wave is practically automatic. And while I will not say that rolling up away from the wave cannot be done, since every time I make an absolute statement like that someone seems to take it as their personal challenge to prove me wrong, but let's say that it's very, very difficult, and I have never managed it. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peteo, Rolling in surf is pretty straightforward with the surf pushing you in position to roll. Relax and the surf will show you which side to roll on, onside or off. This is why, from the git/go, I teach EVERYTHING two sided and balanced. With rolls and braces this is especially true. Then when you make the move into current and surf play rolling/ bracing on EITHER side comes natural. Current and surf (moving water) will give you a big clue to which side es correcto when setting up to roll. Developing condition and position awareness as you go over and set up to roll is the key to developing an instinctive, unconsciously competent, 'combat' roll. One of the biggest mistakes I see advancing paddlers make is developing a one sided roll. Surf and current show you you need to be balanced. Ohmmmmm......(assume Lotus position) ;-) steve Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe N 45: 36.285' 250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr. W 122: 39.841' Portland, OR 97217 Web: www.aldercreek.com Phone: 503.285.0464 Email: aldercreek_at_qwest.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 06:54 AM 8/1/2004 -0700, you wrote: > >Anyway my question is this: - if one was setting up an on side roll and >tipped into the water with the on side nearest the beach does this make it >easier to roll in the surf? i.e is this a position in which the rotational >motion of the wave will help one roll up.< > > Yes. Rolling up into a wave is practically automatic. And while I will >not say that rolling up away from the wave cannot be done, since every time >I make an absolute statement like that someone seems to take it as their >personal challenge to prove me wrong, but let's say that it's very, very >difficult, and I have never managed it. > >Scott Scott, Help me out with this a bit, since I have little experience and cannot picture it clearly. Are you saying that it's easier if the wave is approaching the hull from off shore and you are rolling up on the beach/shore side? Sorry if I seem obtuse here :) Tom *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott, Very clear... and thanks so much for your ideas and explanation! I found this to be very helpful. You took some time. The reason I posed the question was that I was involved in a rather humbling incident yesterday. I paddle a lot, all year round... well maybe not lots compared to some, but I've logged 900 miles in 24 months, average five or six miles a trip... ocean venue... off the Maine coast. Well I generally paddle solo, and have a new Chatham 16 which has inspired lots of confidence in the past four months. My other boats are a Tempest 170 and a Gulfstream. Anyway, I often paddle out between two long jetties, and mostly don't really know what the seas will be like until I get beyond the ends of them. This time, I found myself diving up and over 7 foot steep swells, close trains with some other mixed currents. All was OK (albeit high tension on my part) until I turned and had the waves at my stern; you see, I decided to head back into the harbor, discretion being the better part of valor. The tide was ebbing out and (as mentioned) the rollers were sternwise. I had trouble keeping a strait bow and broached just enough, so that when I attempted a low brace on my port side, I slowly went over. Should have been good enough on that brace, but executed it poorly. I'm still very intermediate in skill. Tried rolling twice, onside (my right), the ebb hopefully helping me up, but with seas waves coming opposite... rollers coming at my hull. Couldn't get up. Now I do have a decent onside roll, but stress or seas made me lose it. I wet-exited and couldn't swim the boat in to shore due to the combination of outgoing current and very high swell. My plan was to try a re-entry and roll... or a paddlefloat on the offshore side of the boat. As luck would have it, a small lobster boat helped out, first by trying to tow me in. I had the boat with one hand, the tow rope with the other. Too difficult! Finally the boat hauled me in and we towed the kayak. I lost only a cap and a bilge pump. I was properly outfitted, and the cool water was not a problem (60 F). but this incident taught me lots. I now think about all the times I've been further from help and solo paddling. I think about installing a painter line, long enough to haul the boat if I'm reasonably close to shore (which mostly I am). I think about some boogie board swim fins to make the swim easier. I think about practicing my rolls more often, and my other self-rescues more regularly. Most of all, I think about being more cautious, in spite of all the well-ending solo paddles. I know that it only takes one bad incident to negate all the good trips I've had. Tom At 03:11 PM 8/1/2004 -0700, you wrote: > >Scott, Help me out with this a bit, since I have little experience and >cannot picture it clearly. Are you saying that it's easier if the wave is >approaching the hull from off shore and you are rolling up on the >beach/shore side? Sorry if I seem obtuse here :)< > > > No, just the opposite. Understand that the water in the surf zone is >being pulled OFF the beach, towards the open ocean, and UP the face of the >wave. So essentially the current directly in front of the wave is heading >away from the beach and out to sea. Now, if you are sitting in your boat >parallel to the beach and the oncoming wave then you will actually find it >difficult to capsize INTO the wave as the water moving up it's face will >tend to support you. If your boat is on the crest of the wave, or past the >crest on the back of the wave, then you can easily capsize away from the >beach on the back of the wave, as there is no real current doing anything we >care about back there. All the current is in front of the wave. ... >pleted their first roll, and they usually don't even know how they did >it! > So in a very long winded answer to your question, when rolling in the >surf you will most likely capsize down wave, towards the shore, and roll >back up INTO the face of the wave, with the waves help. Either that or just >sit tight for ten seconds or so until the wave passes you by, and then you >can roll up on either side of the boat you choose. > I hope this is clear. I know this can be a little confusing. It's a whole >lot easier to describe at the beach where I can draw diagrams and such in >the sand. > >Scott *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Tom, I suspect a tide book would be a good resource for planning your next between-jetties excursion. Sounds like you were on a bar during the ebb current. That usually causes rougher seas and steepens the swells/breakers. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR -- From: "TomL" <tletourn_at_maine.rr.com> > [snip] Anyway, I often > paddle out between two long jetties, and mostly don't really know what the > seas will be like until I get beyond the ends of them. This time, I found > myself diving up and over 7 foot steep swells, close trains with some other > mixed currents. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 8/1/2004 8:19:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time, aldercreek_at_qwest.net writes: > One of the biggest mistakes I see advancing paddlers make is developing a > one sided roll. Surf and current show you you need to be balanced. > Steve is known as pretty fine instructor in the PNW so, I will only (and humbly) add one thing to Steve's comments: You may want to consider setting yourself running down the shoulder of the wave that is not breaking. This will be exclusive of your strong side position and another reason why it is desirable to achieve that balance. Now, imagine paddling in with a swell peaking behind you. The part that is cresting and tumbling is the part that I try to aim away from. This way I use my speed down wave to avoid the brunt of impact. When I broach, I often am on a weaker part of the wave as a result. It does not always work for me, even in ideal conditions, but I do escape enough poundings, to make the attempt worth while. Additionally, the waves you surfed yesterday will not be the ones you surf tomorrow. Some close out evenly, some dump terribly on shore, etc. After you've studied them awhile you will no doubt come up with your own plan, but often enough you can run down hill and away from the most powerful part of that wave. Surf on Dude! Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Tom posted (snip): >The reason I posed the question was that I was involved in a rather humbling incident yesterday...I often paddle out between two long jetties, and mostly don't really know what the seas will be like until I get beyond the ends of them. This time, I found myself diving up and over 7 foot steep swells, close trains with some other mixed currents...I decided to head back into the harbor...The tide was ebbing out and (as mentioned) the rollers were sternwise. I had trouble keeping a strait bow and broached just enough, so that when I attempted a low brace on my port side, I slowly went over. Should have been good enough on that brace, but executed it poorly. I'm still very intermediate in skill...< Thank you for sharing this tale with us. Sounds like you are nearing the "roll-or-drown" stage of your kayaking life. I've come to the point where I realize that wet-exiting often means you are in for a world of pain. Had this occurred in a remote setting, out-going tide, dead-radio zone with no help, the outcome could have been tragic. I reply with extreme respect. I'd suggest more surf time in your kayak to work on reflexetive bracing and rolling, and taking a more firm psychological grasp of the situation and be willing to will yourself upright mentally. You do not want to come out of the kayak. Period. Do what you have to, to stay in, no matter how the lungs are screaming. However, capsize and subsequent exits do happen, even to the very best (as with Leone off the coast of Iceland recently). Avoid conditions where bracing/rolling skills are not up to the prevalent conditions; to do this, you need to develop more marine hazard awareness, spend more time in the cockpit with your _boat of choice_ and log some serious hours pushing the envelope in measured degrees, and perhaps scouting out conditions before entering the water. Spend less time at the pool practicing things like sculling for support and deep brace recovery; rather, experiment and practice these skill development times in real-world conditions on a safe lee-shore environment on increasingly rougher conditions if you are serious about progressing the way you sound like you wish to proceed. Make sure you understand, appreciate, and anticipate/adjust for any perceived or real lack of predictability with your particular kayak hull design/shape (both loaded and empty) in jobbly seas and other marine hydraulics. There are some subtle differences in rough or following seas (with current as an added dimension) between "V" hulled/hard-chined kayaks and those with semi-round bilge hulled kayaks. With the latter, you make the kayak work for you. With the former, you must normally work with the dynamic stability balance point of the kayak. These are my own observations. During this phase of your skills progression and comfort level parameters, there are safety and rescue devices worth considering that could benefit immensely, but careful mitigation of dangerous risk scenarios combined with an expeditiously aggressive but thoughtful experience through to more advanced levels of kayak skill might pay better dividends than investing in items like the Roll-Aid, sponsons, etc., or adding long painter lines. Finding a willing partner (or two) can be particularly beneficial during any seriously pursued advancing in the intermediate stage. Having said all this, I still feel kayakers need to work on their sculling technique. On my recent Nootka Sound trip, I left the group a number of times to seek out rough conditions (they were hard to find, so I made my own), and I lost count of the number of times a successful scull favoured a quick recovery without committing to a full roll (a full roll not being recommended in long surge channels, atop breaking reefs, or immersed in full-rebounding cliff water tight with near-shore boomers, etc.). Of course, a scull-for support followed by a recovery brace doesn't always work out. One evening, I headed across the mouth of the Sound out to Maquinna Point. I raced a trawler at over five knots )my speed) in open waters off the lighthouse, in order to bisect his trajectory, then crossed in front of his bow (I could see the captain in the window and he was non-pulsed and wasn't the type to be a stickler for correct marine navigation in my opinion). A quick sweep turn placed me parallel to his significant bow wake. I sculled over to the side, my right ear in the water, sculling heartily to try my skills in the combined, co-mingled seas. The first wave (superimposed on the two-foot chop and added meter swell) swept over my head and the second bow wave dislodged my glasses (I thought) as one eye saw tinted glass and the other clear as the trough passed. Fearing loss of my $800.00 titanium glasses, I went to a deep water scull as the third bow wave hit. Attempting a full recovery in the jobbly seas (included reflection off the lightstation land mass), I got my off-hand too high up and blew the scull. I made a full inversion, set-up my roll (with a bit of the usual adrenalin - especially after the added four-minute race to cross the bow), and did a screw roll back up, slowly so as not to dislodge the glasses further. On inspection, the glasses were still on just fine, but the first bow wave had broken the sunglass clip-ons in half (!), bending them over so one lens was at 90 degrees. My heart went into deep arrhythmia, so I headed for a rest on shore after waving off the vessel. I'll be back with better sunglasses next time. And that's the attitude, isn't it? Gonna push yourself and your kayak? You better have impeccable gear, lots of cockpit time in the kayak that works for you, reliable skills, and preferably, a very good roll. >I know that it only takes one bad incident to negate all the good trips I've had.< In terms of respect by other paddlers, a true hard-core paddler doesn't give a hoot. In terms of family, well, that's a family matter. In terms of the literal truth of your statement, well, yes indeed. Not coming back does tend to dampen further pursuits. Pardon the pun. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'Day, Thanks for all the replies to the rolling in surf question. My understanding now is : - If a kayaker's 'onside roll' set up position is towards the shore then an onside roll will work easily in the surf, but an offside roll will be against the movement of the wave and nearly impossible. Vice versa, if the offside roll set up position is toward the shore then the offside roll has a good chance of working but the onside roll will be nearly impossible (adapted from Scott) Developing position awareness as you go over and set up to roll is key to developing an instinctive, unconsciously competent, 'combat' roll. (adapted from Steve) The need to roll both sides was emphasised by Steve and illustrated by Tom (thanks for the very convincing report Tom, and Dave and Doug for the analysis) Rob pointed out the virtue of surfing away from the wave (assuming no reefs, rocks cliffs etc en route). This reminded me of something I learn't far too late which is the effectiveness of not trying to fight against broaching for too long and to deliberately control the direction in which you broach. Considerations for the direction might be: - i) Avoiding obstructions ii) Surfing towards the side favouring an on side roll iii) Surfing away from the cresting tumbling part of the wave (Rob) What I've been doing up to now is waiting for the wave to pass over then rolling up which seems to mostly get around the difficulty of not having a good offside roll. Having said all that Tom's word echo in my head "it only takes one bad incident to negate all the good trips" I'm now resolved this summer to learn that offside roll. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
After replying to Tom's post, I did want to remind any new paddlers to be wary of trying to outrun vessels where convergence is even remotely possible. I've seen paddlers in the Gulf Islands try to make crossings oblivious to the fact certain vessels like vehicle/passenger ferries are moving much faster than realized. I always change course or hold off until freighters or ferries pass buy, then play in their wake. Playing off the wake of smaller fast-moving vessels can be a lot of fun too, as I'm sure some of the kayak designers/builders know, for those residing in locations where waves aren't as readily available. Out on open seas, I'm much more lenient with myself in certain situations, as often there can be wave conditions that allow very fast down-wind rides ahead of the vessels trajectory. Non of this should be tried if you are a broach-prone paddler with untested rolling skills, etc. Likewise, toying with working marine vessels should normally be avoided, as also tugs with towed barges should be, especially where a long towline isn't always evident to the inexperienced paddler. My own risk-taking is always very calculated and hasn't failed or seriously annoyed in recent times. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ "Whatever can be said at all can be said clearly and whatever cannot be said clearly should not be said at all." Ludwig Wittgenstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: >I always change course or hold off until >freighters or ferries pass by G'day Doug' and Paddlewise Re large boats - I would have said that as kayakers we have a tremendous moral responsibility to avoid running into ferries and sinking them. And going behind boats was a powerful tool in my armory of safety precautions and moral rectitude. Until last month that is!!! It was a dark and windy day on the harbour. Skittish white-horse waves abounded. Yachts everywhere were champing at the bit to race. Diligently I calculated their route and resolved to paddle well clear and behind the stationary Umpire, Referee or Marshalling Big Motor Boat Thingy that administers the race. Cautiously I paddled, slowly working my way behind that big boat. And what did it do? You guessed it, this monster of the deep promptly went into reverse amid cries of chagrin from the crew expostulating with the driver to "WATCH OUT YOU BLAME _at_#$%&# THERES A KAYAKER BEHIND US!!!". All in vain, try as I might I couldn't get away in time and two ton of slippery steel is hard to brace against. So over I went, hit by the corner of the boat, unable to roll because it was the Kahuna. And was that a propellor? Down down into the deep and bubbly water. Thoughts of my loved ones, my boat and my hat. The crew were kind enough to help my somewhat shook up self find sun-glasses and hat, which in an uncharacteristically vain attempt to look cool and sartorial I had undone and rakishly tied behind my head of unhair. What did I learn? - Always Always Always tie the hat on - it doesn't matter what people say it looks like. Oh and by the way be just as careful going behind boats as going in front of them. Theres only one rule - they just can't see me and I won't sink them. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:38 PDT