Re: [Paddlewise] Boat Copies

| PT: ...Showing that scaling has occurred is not
of itself enough to
| identify a copy. Imagine scaling the cross
sections of a hull, down
| 20%, and the length up 20%. It strains the usual
idea of "copy" to
| accept that such a different shape is a copy.
|
| SB: Peter, I think you're really straining
ethics with all this
| legalese.  If you're scaling someone else's
original work, even if
| you're taking one dimension up 20% and another
down 20%, it's still
| their original work. ...|
| Could you scale someone else's design like that,
pass it off as your
| own work, and still sleep at night?  Are all
these arguments an effort
| to sleep at night with the Nadgee in your boat
shed?

PT: With this example, I was moving away from the
Nadgee situation, and speaking more generally, and
of course, with the 20%, exaggerating to make the
point. I agree with the sentiment that scaling up
or down or both, owes a debt to the original
design. Regards the Nadgee, I am comfortable with
its origins, almost. The one retrospective wish is
that the original references to the Max had been
done clearly with Mariner OK. Subsequent events,
such as the design moving away from the Mariner
blowups, and opportunities to take the issue up,
but foregone, make me comfortable with the end
result. My present wish is that repeating this
short summary does not cause the Cantankerous Boat
Designers Club of North America to need treatment
for high blood pressure again.

SB; I'm the proud owner of a Guillemot that has
been scaled up in length
| 6%--from 17' to 18'.  It's still Nick Schade's
design.  All the good
| aspects of the design are his.  Any unintended
flaws in that scaling
| are mine.
PT: I'm OK with that. Where it gets tricky is if
you had introduced deliberate changes away from
the direct scaling, from your own preferences and
aims for the boat. How much of the new work is
required before the original boat designer says,
like Rob Bryan and the Chupacabras, "Don't worry
about attributing that boat to me, it's now new
and different". I don't think there can be a
definitive answer to this, detecting the elements
from the original design, or noticing the new
aspects, is in the eye of the beholder. (Stay down
there rolling John, this can't be put into a
formula).

SB:| Ethically, the Nadgee is a bold-faced copy of
the Max.  Using another's
| efforts for your own commercial gain is wrong.
If one person copied
| the Max for personal use, it's really not
hurting Mariner.  If that
| same person is selling a closely copied kayak
for commercial gain...how
| is that okay?
PT; There is quite a bit in these comments. I
don't agree that the Nadgee is such a copy,
relying on what I know from Dave at this end.
The proposition that using another's efforts for
commercial gain is wrong, leads to a divide in
values. Some may say that is progress, enterprise,
others that it is a ripoff. I hope I have been
careful with whatever I have put in posts in this
thread not to be advocating using a design without
permission or attribution. But if it is done,
without any illegality, isn't that open market
competition? I think you are right to point to a
difference between copying a design for commercial
purposes and for private purposes. In the
commercial context, designers have to expect that
if they expose their designs for sale, they have
whatever legal protection is available, and
nothing more, don't they?

SB: Generally, all kayaks are inspired (positively
or negatively) by a
| kayak that has come before them.  How much do we
pay in royalties to
| the Inuit and Aleut for their centuries of
design iterations?
PT: Nothing. But full respect and credit to all
earlier makers and designers. And this, I don't
like the idea of stopping development at this
point. If somebody wants to take an idea and
change it, experiment with more or less the same
shape, fit it out differently, see how the hull
shape goes with a finer bow, or more rocker, or
broader angle of entry etc, why the hell not?

| Can we put this to bed?
Happily.
Cheers, PT
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