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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Legs Are Everything was "Long-short; euro-GP..."
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 18:58:37 -0700
Correction in CAPS below.  What moves the kayak forward is any force the 
paddler exerts on the kayak in the forward direction.  If pumping the legs 
achieves that, then the paddler can (in principle) achieve more acceleration 
and/or a higher max speed.

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Kruger" <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>

> Basically, it is the front of your butt and your thighs/legs that push the 
> kayak forward.  Viewing the paddler as a system which interacts with the 
> water and the kayak:

> The kayaker pushes back against the water.  In turn, to anchor that 
> pushing, the kayaker pushes forward on the kayak.

> If somehow more stroke (e.g., FORWARDward pushing either for a longer time 
> or with greater force) can be achieved by pumping your legs, then there 
> will be more total work done on the kayak, by the paddler, and therefore 
> more energy expended moving the kayak forward. 
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From: WhiteRabbit <whiterabbit_0117_at_charter.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Legs Are Everything was "Long-short; euro-GP..."
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 00:23:03 -0500
Taking the devils advocate.  All the legs do is anchor the lower body.

If your butt doesn't move  relative to the foot pegs, then  all the legs are
doing is anchoring the body so the power developed by the large torso
muscles can be transferred into the paddle.  You can drive your legs into
the foot pegs all day and the boat won't move until you put the paddle into
the water.   You can also drive your legs for all you are worth and if you
are arm paddling still not accomplish much.

It is a wide wide world, but I have never seen or heard of a paddler
actually using their leg power to rotate their hips in the seat.  Most keep
their butt relatively still in the seat and rotate at the base  and lower
part of the spine.

It is a useful visualization, and for many causes them to assume a better
posture, and do a better stroke, but it isn't where the power is coming
from.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- 
When logic and proportion Have fallen softly dead,
Remember what the dormouse said:
"Feed your head. Feed your head. Feed your head"
-WhiteRabbit
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From: Kirk Olsen <kork4_at_cluemail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Legs Are Everything was "Long-short; euro-GP..."
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 10:23:07 -0400
On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 00:23:03 -0500, "WhiteRabbit"
<whiterabbit_0117_at_charter.net> said:
> Taking the devils advocate.  All the legs do is anchor the lower body.
>
> It is a wide wide world, but I have never seen or heard of a paddler
> actually using their leg power to rotate their hips in the seat.  Most
> keep their butt relatively still in the seat and rotate at the base
> and lower part of the spine.

Alas Fred Mechini's excellent website with lots of videos has
gone missing.

I did find a couple photos of Nashan Baggaley - a double olympic silver
medalist. Look at the final bottom 2 photos in his gallery
http://www.nathanbaggaley.com.au/pages/gallery.php   Note the knee
position in each photo - one stroke on the right, one on the left. In
both photos he's nearing or just finishing a stroke and his leg, on the
side he's paddling on, is nearly straight and the other side is 
high and ready to drive another stroke.
-- 
  Kirk Olsen
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From: Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Legs Are Everything was "Long-short; euro-GP..."
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:47:51 -0400
Olympic style sprint kayaking does actually involve having your hips 
rotate in the seat. The seats are quite low and smooth and permit your 
butt to move. A friend of mine actually mounted his seat on lazy-susan 
bearings allowing his whole seat could rotate. Torso rotation, twisting 
above the hips, is still part of it, but the movement is initiated by 
your legs moving your hips.

On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 00:23:03 -0500, "WhiteRabbit"
<whiterabbit_0117_at_charter.net> said:
> Taking the devils advocate.  All the legs do is anchor the lower body.
>
> It is a wide wide world, but I have never seen or heard of a paddler
> actually using their leg power to rotate their hips in the seat.  Most
> keep their butt relatively still in the seat and rotate at the base
> and lower part of the spine.

Nick Schade

Guillemot Kayaks
824 Thompson St
Glastonbury, CT 06033
USA
Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847
http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/
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From: RICHARD CULPEPER <culpeper_at_tbaytel.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Legs Are Everything was "Long-short; euro-GP..."
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 11:30:31 -0400
On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 10:23:07 -0400
  "Kirk Olsen" <kork4_at_cluemail.com> wrote:
. . .
> Alas Fred Mechini's excellent website with lots of videos has
> gone missing.

You can mail him at fmechini_at_kayaksport.net
His pics and vids of canoe and kayak sprint racing are at 
http://www.kayaksport.net/index.htm along with a few of John Winter's articles on 
resistance, and a wealth of other information.

Richard Culpeper
http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/
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From: Kirk Olsen <kork4_at_cluemail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Legs Are Everything was "Long-short; euro-GP..."
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 13:09:44 -0400
On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 00:23:03 -0500, "WhiteRabbit"
<whiterabbit_0117_at_charter.net> said:
> Taking the devils advocate.  All the legs do is anchor the lower body.
>
> It is a wide wide world, but I have never seen or heard of a paddler
> actually using their leg power to rotate their hips in the seat.  Most
> keep their butt relatively still in the seat and rotate at the base
> and lower part of the spine.

Brent Reitz has an online article on how to use your legs.
http://www.wildsprint.com/resources/burning_question/bq_sep02.htm
-- 
  Kirk Olsen
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From: Bob Volin <bobvolin_at_optonline.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Legs Are Everything was "Long-short; euro-GP..."
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 01:33:27 -0400
<<The thing I don't understand is how flexing those leg muscles in a kayak
> generates the forward movement. I know it does help through listening to
> what everyone says and my own experience - I just don't understand why.>>


It seems to me that the leg push supports and strengthens trunk rotation,
much as chest wall elevation supports the shoulders and arms when lifting.
At the same time, the power of the paddle stroke is transferred to the boat
with less energy loss than would be the case if the leg were relaxed and
acted as a kind of shock absorber.

Bob V
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