Nick wrote; (Assorted snips) >However, I doubt that these sort of draws will have any long-term holding >power over an >individual paddler. After they have all the stuff, or learned all the >tricks, it is whether or not they actually enjoy paddling that will >keep them paddling. Makes sense to me. > After awhile kayaks-for-wilderness and wilderness-for-kayaking would start > to merge. Possibly and probably good if they would. The question seems to become how to acomplish that and, from a magazines standpoint, would it pay. >I don't buy the lack of instant gratification idea. Again, look at >surfing. I have never tried to stand up on a small chunk of styrofoam >in big water, but I am under no illusion that I would be ripping up >waves my first time out. People are willing to take a lot of time to >get good at a sport. And still looking at surfing, if the excitement of >surfing is what people want people can get exactly that in a kayak. >I've spent many a fun day surfing. If it can be sold to board surfers, >it can be sold to kayakers. May not have made myself clear. I did not mean that surfing provided instant gratification but that the mass market sought instant gratification. Surfing, I believe provides more excitment. Should have used more care in keeping the two issues separate. >From my observations of surfing and surfers up here it does not appear to suit the mass market unless ones idea of the mass market includes sitting out in the ocean on a board in sub-zero weather searching for the ideal wave. Of course, maybe things differ in the sunny warm south. As for a comparison between surfing kayaks and surfing on a board it seems to me that for sheer excitement the board surfers appear to get more bang for their buck and time. The fellow that runs the surf shop also paddles and runs kayak tours. I will chat with him about this to get his opinion. >As someone who believes in quantitative, empirical analysis, I must >admit that the good professor may be on to something. Judging the >quality of a magazine based on the number of articles written by the >professor sounds like a good, non-subjective metric. Do you mean more articles means "good quality" or more articles means "poor quality"? :-) Cheers John Winters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: John Winters <jdwinters_at_eastlink.ca > that for me. It may serve other people well. I get what I need elsewhere > (here for example and at no cost). HA! Wait till you see the HUGE pay increase just approved for Kirk!! I think it's something like 35% (it's been a long time since Kirk had an increase in pay). Jackie
In a message dated 12/29/2004 2:35:36 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, jdwinters_at_eastlink.ca writes: Do Paddlewise people feel that the focus on paddling promoted by the marketers of boats, equipment, training, and travel has a kind of superficiality? Have people become obsessed with gear and travel to the detriment of paddling? Do paddlers in general focus too much on the artifacts of paddling (By artifacts I mean the gear and adventure culture surrounding paddling) instead of the pure the kind of enjoyment that Nicks seems to be talking about (let me know if I read you wrong on this Nick). One of my friends has an old Polaris. He's crossed the Bering strait in it, did 10 days in a Russian brig, as well as doing the Inside Passage thing, and many other trips. He's the archetype of paddling (to me), regardless of the latest gear. Me? I like a high(er) performance boat, modern paddles and gear that reflects the advances in material and times. Neither of us has a better time than the other when we paddle together. I do not feel as though either of us are in a hard sell position with either old school or new school equipment. I don't think this "industry" is there yet, thank God. On training, I don't feel any hype, either. I think you have to seek out quality instruction from a cast of low key types to get it. Travel, now there is the hype. I hate travel mags and the superficial blowing curtains looking out on a tropical bay. Everyone is kissing and holding a drink, ready to hit the town for a 5 star dinner, from their 5 star Inn. Gag. The "Adventure" mags have fallen prey to the travel hype. Seen Outside lately? National Geographic Adventure is virtually the same. They are supported by the travel industry and thus must reflect that. The only "Adventure" they reflect is wondering how many pages you will flip through before you toss it in the recycler. Ah, the Adventure Culture! Now there is the rub. Mr. Winters, are you referring to the First Decent types, those that have to put there name on the un-named, just to name it? Maybe the ""circumnavigate the earth in a bathtub because it's not been done" type has crossed your mind? I am inspired by persons relating tales of beautiful places they have been and highly recommend. Perhaps the flora and fauna I want to see is there, too. But the first to do this or that, in winter, spring, summer or fall is irrelevant. Will it be nice when I get there is all I care about. I am inspired by travellers tales. Travelling is important to me. I appreciate what Nick says that paddling is in its own right the essence of what's most important. And I agree it is the means to the end least described, (Don't hatchet me if I misconstrued you) Most of my paddling is conducted that way. However, paddling is most sublime when I get to paddle in an exotic locale and combine paddling with travel. Maybe I just do not like the hype and prefer the low brow side of things. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: [...] >The promoters of freestyle canoeing hoped (still hope) to >do that with canoeing. >I can recall many late night debates on how paddling should focus >on the activity with travel a fringe benefit of paddling. I found this a bit >difficult to reconcile after many years of solo wilderness tripping.. >Canoeing and paddling skills served me (still does) as a way to get into the >wilderness rather than the wilderness serving me as a place to paddle. I happen to see it both ways. But I do realize that for most people paddling is only or mostly a way to get somewhere. And there is nothing wrong with that. But after lots of similar discussions with paddlers who wanted to promote canoeing, I have found much difficulty with my point of view that there already are more than enough people who would want to paddle, so we do not have to promote that. What is important, I think, is to make those people encouraged enough to actually do it, and making them aware that aside from the destination, paddling in itself can be a very rewarding activity too, especially if you care to invest some in techniques, be it paddling-, boating- or material ones. What I don't like about magazines like Paddler and C & K is not when they repeat things for beginners (although often the content is not really up to date or too simplistic) but that -- as it seems to me -- they try to make paddling more interesting with all that pictures from boats falling down from waterfalls. Combined with the fact that their focus on canoeing has too nostalgic tone the last years, they lost my interest for sure. The internet, and especially the discussion facilities there, supply me with enough interesting (and potentially interactive!) reading to keep me from actually paddling ;-) Dirk Barends *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/30/2004 3:18:05 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, jaf30_at_cornell.edu writes: I don't think that is entirely the case with symposiums. The skills symposiums started by Atlantic Kayak Tours and the Sweetwater symposium are very much skills development/training oriented. From what I've read of some of the others classes, off-water instruction, and tours seem to make up a large part of what happens at them as well. I'm much in agreement with John on this. The California BCU symposiums I've attended are entirely skill based and the most you can buy is a T Shirt. Well, actually I bought my surf drogue from Rowland Woolven who makes his by hand. Very nice affair. Anyway, you do not have to be a BCU paddler to attend, just a paddler interested in improving skills. Folks from all over the country attended the past two that I've attended. Very nice to paddle with some East coasters, Californians, etc. Made some friends I can paddle with when I get out that way, too. Is n't that what it's really about, anyway? Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<Rcgibbert_at_aol.com> wrote: > Well, > actually I bought my surf drogue from Rowland Woolven who makes his by > hand. I think I can imagine what a surf drogue is, but tell us more, especially when/how you would use it. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave wrote: - >I think I can imagine what a surf drogue is, but >tell us more, especially when/how you would use it. Richard wrote: >The thought of having a mass of cord and material >chasing me down a wave (which is surely what it would >do once you are through a break zone) fills me with horror. G'Day, Years ago someone on Paddlewise described the difference between a sea anchor and a drogue. However, many books and dictionaries seem to use the terms interchangeably and in puzzling ways. Some of the definitions suggest that a drogue can maintain a heading into the wind EG: - http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/s/s0182900.html or http://www.wordreference.com/definition/drogue I can see how a sea anchor attached at the bow can maintain a heading into the wind and I own one one for that purpose, though have never had cause to use it. But how can a drogue attached at the stern maintain a heading into the wind? Am I missing something? Eventually found two convincing explanations of the difference between a drogue and a sea anchor at http://www.paraanchor.com/faq.zac.html, which maintains that a sea anchor can be attached either at the bow or stern to stabilise a boats position to the wind. while a drogue is attached at the stern only to slow a boat's movement through the water to increase steering control and allow for directional stability. Another description consistent with this and which also describes use of a drougue by a yacht to control surfing at sea was http://www.cruiser.co.za/faq2.asp OK so its probably a bit academic:~) By the way although I'm not much of a surfer and have enjoyed many surf trashings, I'ld 100% agree with Richard about not wishing to use a drogue with a kayak in the surf. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
OK, let's see here. Rob begins with; >>The California BCU symposiums I've attended are entirely skill based and the most you can buy is a T Shirt. Well, actually I bought my surf drogue from Rowland Woolven who makes his by hand. Rowland Woolven, for those of you who may not know, is a 5 star BCU coach. Then Rob states; >> Anyway, it's not very big and I'm expected to use it on assessment day I had instructors in college who made buying the books THEY wrote for the class, which were tremendously over priced, AS WELL AS the recommended text book mandatory. Funny thing is we never seemed to actually need the book the instructor wrote for the class at all. This does nothing to improve my opinion of certification for sea kayakers. Scott So.Cal. Sent 1/2/05 5:50PM -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 12/30/2004 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Dec 31, 2004, at 3:22 PM, John Winters wrote: > Nick wrote; > (Assorted snips) > May not have made myself clear. I did not mean that surfing provided > instant gratification but that the mass market sought instant > gratification. Surfing, I believe provides more excitment. Should have > used more care in keeping the two issues separate. Having done some kayak surfing I am hard pressed to see how board surfing could be any more exciting. The difference to me is imperceptible. > >> From my observations of surfing and surfers up here it does not >> appear to > suit the mass market unless ones idea of the mass market includes > sitting out in the ocean on a board in sub-zero weather searching for > the ideal wave. Of course, maybe things differ in the sunny warm > south. As for a comparison between surfing kayaks and surfing on a > board it seems to me that for sheer excitement the board surfers > appear to get more bang for their buck and time. The fellow that runs > the surf shop also paddles and runs kayak tours. I will chat with him > about this to get his opinion. While winter surfing may not be mass market, it does figure prominently in some surfing magazines. It may not make the cover shot but it is considered part of the sport. I consistently see articles about winter surfing in other non-surfing mass market periodicals. I really think the perception that sea kayaking does not have mass market appeal is due in part to how it is portrayed. I am not eager to see sea kayaking become a mass market sport. I do think it could never reach the level of surfing, but I think there is untapped room for growth. > >> As someone who believes in quantitative, empirical analysis, I must >> admit that the good professor may be on to something. Judging the >> quality of a magazine based on the number of articles written by the >> professor sounds like a good, non-subjective metric. > > Do you mean more articles means "good quality" or more articles means > "poor quality"? :-) Actually, I'm not sure. Maybe the Professor should seek a grant and do a study. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/31/2004 3:39:21 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, kiayker_at_sbcglobal.net writes: While some of the high performance surf kayaks and waveskis can be pretty fast and nimble on a wave, they still cannot, and probably never will be able to outperform a surfboard. Where is N Schade, M Broze and J Winters when you need them? Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Dec 31, 2004, at 3:22 PM, John Winters wrote: > Nick wrote; > (Assorted snips) > May not have made myself clear. I did not mean that surfing provided > instant gratification but that the mass market sought instant > gratification. Surfing, I believe provides more excitment. Should have > used more care in keeping the two issues separate. Having done some kayak surfing I am hard pressed to see how board surfing could be any more exciting. The difference to me is imperceptible. > >> From my observations of surfing and surfers up here it does not >> appear to > suit the mass market unless ones idea of the mass market includes > sitting out in the ocean on a board in sub-zero weather searching for > the ideal wave. Of course, maybe things differ in the sunny warm > south. As for a comparison between surfing kayaks and surfing on a > board it seems to me that for sheer excitement the board surfers > appear to get more bang for their buck and time. The fellow that runs > the surf shop also paddles and runs kayak tours. I will chat with him > about this to get his opinion. While winter surfing may not be mass market, it does figure prominently in some surfing magazines. It may not make the cover shot but it is considered part of the sport. I consistently see articles about winter surfing in other non-surfing mass market periodicals. I really think the perception that sea kayaking does not have mass market appeal is due in part to how it is portrayed. I am not eager to see sea kayaking become a mass market sport. I do think it could never reach the level of surfing, but I think there is untapped room for growth. > >> As someone who believes in quantitative, empirical analysis, I must >> admit that the good professor may be on to something. Judging the >> quality of a magazine based on the number of articles written by the >> professor sounds like a good, non-subjective metric. > > Do you mean more articles means "good quality" or more articles means > "poor quality"? :-) Actually, I'm not sure. Maybe the Professor should seek a grant and do a study. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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