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From: Bob Carter <revkayak_at_aptalaska.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] passions, politics, religion and rescues
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:57:45 -0900
Matt wrote:
Finally a request. This is a paddling forum, lets try to keep the passions
of both politics and religion off of it please.
Doug wrote:
As for religion on paddlewise, I agree, it should be kept to a bare minimum.

    Over the years I have participated in the Paddlewise discussion I have
often stayed out of the religious debates for two reasons. One this is
afterall a form about paddling not religion. Two, whereas religion is a matter
of personal deep felt belief I prefer face to face in depth discussions as
opposed to the internet which limits discussion.
    In my trip reports I have shared with the Paddlewise gang, I have written
about spiritual moments. I shared them because that is how I experience life
upon the sea, but not to force my beliefs on others. Many who have commented
on my stories have connected with this spiritual aspect because it is a part
of their paddling and life also.  I have tried hard to keep them religiously
generic. In other words I have used terms such as Creator rather than specific
Christian language. I have done this respecting those who do not share my
theology or beliefs.
    Simply put my faith journey began from a wilderness experience and it is
in the wilderness that I feel closest to my Creator. In other words my days
upon the sea are a tapestry of who I am physically, mentally and yes,
spiritually. Remove one thread from the tapestry and it all falls apart.

Bob
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] passions, politics, religion and rescues
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:12:41 -0800
Eloquently put, Rev. Carter.  I suspect many of us are sand-Druids.  A piece 
written while in thrall to nature's call: 
http://www.kayakplace.com/essay/dkn/dkn25.htm

Give me open spaces, and I will thrive.

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Carter" <revkayak_at_aptalaska.net>

>    In my trip reports I have shared with the Paddlewise gang, I have 
> written
> about spiritual moments. I shared them because that is how I experience 
> life
> upon the sea, but not to force my beliefs on others. Many who have 
> commented
> on my stories have connected with this spiritual aspect because it is a 
> part
> of their paddling and life also.  I have tried hard to keep them 
> religiously
> generic. In other words I have used terms such as Creator rather than 
> specific
> Christian language. I have done this respecting those who do not share my
> theology or beliefs.
>    Simply put my faith journey began from a wilderness experience and it is
> in the wilderness that I feel closest to my Creator. In other words my days
> upon the sea are a tapestry of who I am physically, mentally and yes,
> spiritually. Remove one thread from the tapestry and it all falls apart. 
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From: Michael Daly <mikedaly_at_magma.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] passions, politics, religion and rescues
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 04:39:24 -0500
On 12 Dec 2004 at 22:57, Bob Carter wrote:

> I prefer face to face in depth discussions

I've always said - religion is like sex: it should be practiced in 
private and involve consenting adults.

I was taught that by my rather devout mother, though she never quite 
used those words...

Mike
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From: Joyce, Thomas F. <TJoyce_at_bellboyd.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] passions, politics, religion and rescues
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:25:40 -0600
I don't like fanaticism either, but if I don't care for the tone or
substance of a message, I delete it without finishing reading it; repeat
offenders get filtered automatically into the delete folder.  Political
hand grenades belong elsewhere, but there may be important political
issues affecting paddling topics (overregulation, resource management,
local/state/national/international control, etc.) that list members may
want to hear about, and I would rather see a freer forum in which
offenders are properly chastised.  As for religious elements, I can't
remember any on this list that have ever bothered me.  When I think of
how religious feeling suffuses the writings of John Muir, who seemed to
regard natural phenomena as a direct manifestation of the divine, I
would feel deprived if I were denied the opportunity to hear his sincere
feelings.  

Tom


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From: Michael Lampman <mlampman_at_solitaireboats.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] passions, politics, religion and rescues
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 13:24:36 -0500
On Dec 14, 2004, at 11:25 AM, Joyce, Thomas F. wrote:

>  As for religious elements, I can't
> remember any on this list that have ever bothered me.  When I think of
> how religious feeling suffuses the writings of John Muir, who seemed to
> regard natural phenomena as a direct manifestation of the divine, I
> would feel deprived if I were denied the opportunity to hear his 
> sincere
> feelings.

I agree.  It is entirely appropriate to express one's personal 
experiences, feelings and even religious ideas in connection with 
paddling.  However the passage quoted  below from a message posted to 
this list is not of that nature.  It is religious advice to OTHERS, 
(also known as preaching).   To it I still object:

"If you go, take a Bible along to read and maybe someday you will 
understand
that man is not an island unto himself. Believe it or not, humankind 
needs
each  other. Way down deep you are reaching out to others whether or 
not you know
  it. Others and myself will pray for you whether you like it or not,  
and be
concerned for your life. Amen."

Michael in cold Tallahassee
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From: Steve Brown <steve_at_brown-web.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] passions, politics, religion and rescues
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 11:07:34 -0800
It all boils down to how "free" the free speech is on this list. It is a
paddling list, so there are limits. Paddling is more an exercise in physics
than philosophy. Nevertheless, we all seem to have our own philosophy
regarding it.

As much as any other philosophy is allowed on the list, a bible based
philosophy is just as valid to be expressed. There is nothing objectively
that makes religion based philosophy more unacceptable than any other.

For those of us with strong religious beliefs, our religion is the basis of
our philosophy. For those of us who are bible believing religion type
people, the bible is the foundation of that philosophy.

There is a lot of preaching on this list about the ethics of copying
designs, about protecting the environment, and all kinds of other things
only tangentially (if at all) related to actual paddling. I see no reason to
single out religious thoughts for censure.

Though I am a bible believing person, I do not see paddling as a spiritual
activity any more than mountain biking or running. Even so, if others do, I
don't see the harm in them expressing that on the list. It's as valid for
expression as all the other philosophies.

One thing for certain, any idea put forth in a forum like this should be
subject to someone else posting the counter idea. If the point is valid to
be expressed, so is the counter point. 

Steve Brown

-----Original Message-----

........  However the passage quoted  below from a message posted to 
this list is not of that nature.  It is religious advice to OTHERS, 
(also known as preaching).   To it I still object:

..............

Michael in cold Tallahassee
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