Gordin said (snip): >I'm firmly in the same camp as Dave Kruger when it comes to sharing camping >spots. Specifically I hate becoming a slave to some guidebook authors >recommendations.< Yeah, I was wondering when someone was going to rant on this subject. I agree too - slaving yourself to a guide book kinda flies in the face of what kayak-touring is all about, which is of course, freedom. I think if anyone is silly enough to stand off shore, fretting over some distant point where allegedly exists an author's perception of a great camping/lay-over spot, well, their just silly. Having said that, I am grateful for some of the spots I've located via guide books and maps over the years, spots that were off the beaten track, that were just plain gorgeous, and spots that I probably would not have taken aim for, typically, without the recommendation of an author. To be fair to some of these authors/ guidebook writers, we can choose not to purchase their books and go au natural. I for one think there's a balance somewhere in this discussion, as always. As for better sites, you do speak some truth into the situation. However, I always make my prime motivating factor (when choosing a spot to overnight or hang for a day or two) the usual: lee shore questions, weather, tide accessibility, sun-up vs. sun-down ambient light, etc. Good guide books denote some of these factors. A guide book is simple that - a guide (as in guidelines). >Even worse is the epiphany book. The type where the author meets god or >has a religious experience that they are compelled to share with everyone. >Very few writers do this well. Rev. Bob is one of the few...< Interesting point, perhaps one best left for personal discussion, but I do understand your sentiment. My own opinion on this matter seems to vacillate. In the past I've appreciated everything from forum posts, magazine articles, and books - where the author has taken the time to write their personal reflections in an intelligible, meaningful, and hopefully somewhat relevant way, as long as it is well-articulated. But is does tend to get a bit thick when every new paddler out there makes some epic (or not so epic) voyage where there's all this personal discovery going on all of a sudden, whereby they then insist on writing all about it. What's too much or not enough epiphany for one person's taste, isn't for another's. Again, a little balance is nice here too. I'd be perhaps more hesitant to expunge this aspect of paddling than you would (by the sounds of it). Certainly a writer like Chris Duff is an award-winning writer, recognized for his reflective style, but I know there are those who have gotten bogged down reading his work. There are those who I'm sure prostitute their paddling experience to cash in on the popularity of paddling right now, and there are those who simply can't help but share what transpired personally during some backcountry voyage. I certainly don't resent either of these two theoretical possibilities, but I can choose not to buy or read what I don't want to. >That's it I'm going kayaking.< Now that's an epiphany!!! :-) Doug Lloyd Victoria BC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Whatever can be said at all can be said clearly and whatever cannot be said clearly should not be said at all." Ludwig Wittgenstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug said, > I think if anyone is silly enough to stand off shore, fretting over some > distant point where allegedly exists an author's perception of a great > camping/lay-over spot, well, their just silly. To be fair, I'm highlighting just this one snip, but Doug's post was balanced and fair, so I'm not knocking his "silly" comment, just expounding upon it. The point I want to emphasize is "PERSPECTIVE". While the above snip and other people's opinions may be valid where they live/paddle, it's not always the case for everyone, so I want to flip the coin for a moment. As said before, in many East Coast scenarios, you aren't fretting over someone's perception of a "great" spot. You may be looking for the ONLY available patch of ground that can accommodate a tent, no matter how great or how crappy. I understand that that's not just an East Coast thing - I'm just far more familiar with my experiences, so I'll stick with an East Coast example. With overhanging bushes and branches protruding, say, 5-8 feet over the water, in water that drops to depths too great to make it possible to get out of a kayak without doing a wet exit, and no possibility of pulling your boat through the growth even if you manage to somehow make it to shore through all the scrub yourself..... then that guidebook telling you where you CAN actually get onto dry land can be a valuable tool. I've looked at maps, topos and aerial photos that didn't do the trick, but a book told of a 10 or 12 square foot splotch of bare land that could be landed on and a single tent pitched. The above is primarily my fresh water in-land experience, and not necessarily descriptive of all the paddling locations I've been to, but it serves the purpose of my example. With my Salt water, tidal experience, I contend with lots and lots of marsh and wetlands on the edges of open water, and where there are nice beaches or dry land... there's a house. So, the prospect of reading a guide book to discover that within a particular 20 mile stretch of coast line, there are basically "nn" spots to "legally" get ashore, and here they are.. and only this one is suitable for pitching a tent due to size, location or legality.... well, give me the guidebook. I may discover on my own that it was wrong, but I sure want to see what they have to say BEFORE I'm 20 miles into a trip and for the life of me can't find a single spot to get ashore. So, IMHO the bottom line on the usefulness of guidebooks are totally dependant on where you're paddling, and the quality of the info within the guidebook, and what your needs are. If we're talking about "secret spots", let's discover those on our own. If it's "here's a spot where you can get out of your boat" if you need to, then let's publish those. If you're using the guide book as your ONLY source of info, and taking it literally, then you're probably setting yourself up for disappointment and troubles ahead. It should only be a piece of your research, not "the" research. Also, with the density of the population on the east coast, "secret spots" really aren't in my realm of thinking anyway. Here, "wilderness" is relative. It means there aren't "many" people, roads and towns in the area :-) And wilderness in relation to the coast of the Atlantic ocean... FORGET IT! It may be lightly populated in areas, but believe me... it's populated. And those sections that aren't populated are restricted, too polluted to even want to go to, National or State Parks, or uninhabitable due to terrain issues (too swampy, etc). I need to move, any west coasters want a freeloader for a while :-) Okay, I'm finished practicing my typing skills..... Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
doug and Rick: I have been following this list diligently, and now i am going to throw in my two cents (canadian cents). I have to side with Rick here. The past few years i have done some paddling on lake superior near wawa. the coastline here is extremely hostile. on two separate trips, we were beached for a couple of days due to sea and weather conditions. the cliffs and shoreline are so rugged that potential campsite/takeouts have to be considered carefully, or you just might not make it. we had to make a run for a takeout with a brewing storm, and it was either make it, or be dashed on the cliffs. In these cases, the coordinates of campsites and takeouts would aid in knowing how far the next potential take out would be. with the general locations only, there is still the opportunity for exploring and discovery, but it would aid in planning and safety. was that two cents or a loonie? Bart *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rick said (snip): >If you're using the guide book as your ONLY source of info, and taking it >literally, then you're probably setting yourself up for disappointment and >troubles ahead. It should only be a piece of your research, not "the" >research< Excellent point. >The point I want to emphasize is "PERSPECTIVE". While the above snip and >other people's opinions may be valid where they live/paddle, it's not >always the case for everyone, so I want to flip the coin for a moment.< Of course, I said that in deference to Gordin's post. Thinking it through, I don't really have a strong opinion on this subject. Guidebooks remain an option, buyer beware; and where there are specific camping restrictions, then an up-to-date guide book certainly is a good heads-up. Bart said (snip): >we had to make a run for a takeout with a brewing storm, and it was either >make it, or be dashed on the cliffs. In these cases, the coordinates of >campsites and takeouts would aid in knowing how far the next potential take >out would be.< Now, that sounds like fun kayaking. Can I come with you next time? Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 06:59 PM 02/02/2005 -0800, you wrote: >Bart said (snip): >>we had to make a run for a takeout with a brewing storm, and it was >>either make it, or be dashed on the cliffs. In these cases, the >>coordinates of campsites and takeouts would aid in knowing how far the >>next potential take out would be.< > >Now, that sounds like fun kayaking. Can I come with you next time? > >Doug Lloyd >Victoria BC > >Count me in as well. Gordin Warner Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I have been following this list diligently, and now i am going to throw in > my two cents (canadian cents). > I have to side with Rick here. Thanks for the input. But, I don't know that it's really a "take sides" issue :-) It's really just commenting and discussing based on our own personal experiences and the geography we each paddle in. Sharing and caring, so to speak. Okay... group hug... everybody in :-) Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
sorry rick: i agree. i should have phrased my input a little differently. it is truly a geographical and personal experience issue. oops. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gordin&Doug: It is interesting how varied our kayaking experiences are. It is also amazing how diverse our land is. I have a tendency to think that kayaking as I experience it is the same for others. I can say that the North shore of Lake Superior is a dramatically beautiful and rugged area. I have gone for a week and not seen even another boat! There is a good outfitter called Naturally Superior Adventures near Wawa. I have been starting to paddle with an outrigger, and with the added safety margin, have increased the remoteness of my solo trips. If a group ever wants to paddle Superior however, you can count me in as well. It's too bad that you can only really swim in the cold water during the last two weeks of august! >Bart said (snip): >>we had to make a run for a takeout with a brewing storm, and it was >>either make it, or be dashed on the cliffs. In these cases, the >>coordinates of campsites and takeouts would aid in knowing how far the >>next potential take out would be.< > >Now, that sounds like fun kayaking. Can I come with you next time? > >Doug Lloyd >Victoria BC > >Count me in as well. Gordin Warner Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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