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From: Keith Wrage <keith.wrage_at_charter.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] binocs vs monocular
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:00:05 -0600
OK, the "which binocs should I buy" question has been done several times 
but I'm asking for some opinions:

Looking for on-water use but also casual in-camp use (e.g., wildlife 
watching although I'm not a "birder" is the true sense of the 
word!).  On-water would be primarily scouting navigational landmarks or 
checking campsites to see if they are empty (e.g., BWCAW trips).  Being in 
Wisconsin, I do primarily inland paddling with the exception of places like 
Apostle Islands although this is maybe a once a year trip.  These would 
also be the only set of distance optics in our house - so I could possibly 
see them being used in other ways too.

Here are 3 diverse choices:
http://www.kayakacademy.com/catalog/BMonoc.html (6x30 monocular with 
neoprene float, $135)

http://www.binoculars.com/products_v7/Bushnell_8x25_H2O_FRP_Compact_5640.html 
(compact 8x25 cheapie binocs, $40)

http://www.binoculars.com/products_v7/Nikon_8x25_Mountaineer_II_ATB_165.html 
(compact 8x25 quality binocs, $185)

Recognizing that price dictates quality in some regards - how bad would the 
$40 pair be?)  Disposable? :o)
With the neoprene float, I'm guessing the monocular isn't really THAT small 
(6" long)
The field of view for the above are (at 1,000 ft):  340, 370, 330 feet

So...can someone explain why the 6x30 would be better than the others in a 
moving craft?  It would seem that they all view the same amount of area - 
so it isn't as though one is incredibly more powerful than the others.  I 
recognize that I'm displaying my ignorance of optics at this point so feel 
free to educate me in that regard.

Thanks very much for taking the time to share your knowledge!
Keith
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From: Gary J. MacDonald <garyj_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] binocs vs monocular
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:32:18 -0500
I have 2 pair (unfortunately neither waterproff) and both are adequately 
clear and sharp:

1.    Cheapie 2-barrell bushnells $20 that fit in shirt pocket.  8x21 or 
something like that.  Not great but you have them with you when others 
would be at home or back in hte car.  If lost or damaged it is "doggone" 
not "OH-MI-GAWD".
2.    Ancient 7x35-WA, probably a cheap model.  They have a 10-degree 
field (most WAs have only 8ish-deg) vs. the 6.5-deg of the standard 
model I give to the kids.  That big field of vision is amazing when 
looking for birds on the wing or for other search tasks.  I used to 
treat these like cheap throwaways, until I realized that I couldn't find 
the big width easily to replace them cheaply.  So I only use them when 
secure now.

3.    My wife (and my father) have expensive binocs.  Very sharp and 
clear, and nice, but even Dad the birder uses his heavy ugly 7x35s more 
often because they have a wide (8-deg) angle, and his gorgeous 8x40 
Nikons sit at home a lot.

4.    I think that today's cheap hardware-store binos are not so great. 
 The single focus or quick-focus are to stay away from.  (The quick 
focus just puts all the adjustment that used to be available by turning 
the centre wheel a full turn or more, and puts it on a one-eighth turn 
with a lever.  Very sensitive to a bit of adjustment and so very hard to 
actually focus those.)

GaryJ


Keith Wrage wrote:

> OK, the "which binocs should I buy" question has been done several 
> times but I'm asking for some opinions:
>
> Looking for on-water use but also casual in-camp use (e.g., wildlife 
> watching although I'm not a "birder" is the true sense of the word!).  
> On-water would be primarily scouting navigational landmarks or 
> checking campsites to see if they are empty (e.g., BWCAW trips).  
> Being in Wisconsin, I do primarily inland paddling with the exception 
> of places like Apostle Islands although this is maybe a once a year 
> trip.  These would also be the only set of distance optics in our 
> house - so I could possibly see them being used in other ways too. 

> Recognizing that price dictates quality in some regards - how bad 
> would the $40 pair be?)  Disposable? :o)
> With the neoprene float, I'm guessing the monocular isn't really THAT 
> small (6" long)
> The field of view for the above are (at 1,000 ft):  340, 370, 330 feet
>
> So...can someone explain why the 6x30 would be better than the others 
> in a moving craft?  It would seem that they all view the same amount 
> of area - so it isn't as though one is incredibly more powerful than 
> the others.  I recognize that I'm displaying my ignorance of optics at 
> this point so feel free to educate me in that regard.
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From: Michael Daly <mikedaly_at_magma.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] binocs vs monocular
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:21:47 -0500
On 24 Mar 2005 at 8:00, Keith Wrage wrote:

> Here are 3 diverse choices:
> http://www.kayakacademy.com/catalog/BMonoc.html (6x30 monocular with
> neoprene float, $135)
> 
> http://www.binoculars.com/products_v7/Bushnell_8x25_H2O_FRP_Compact_56
> 40.html (compact 8x25 cheapie binocs, $40)
> 
> http://www.binoculars.com/products_v7/Nikon_8x25_Mountaineer_II_ATB_16
> 5.html (compact 8x25 quality binocs, $185)
> 
> Recognizing that price dictates quality in some regards - how bad
> would the $40 pair be?)  Disposable?

While these will in no way compare to the high-end binocs, they might 
be reasonable for someone that only wants occasional use with a price 
that won't hurt if they are lost or damaged.  I have a relatively 
cheap pair of Bushnells quite similar to these and they are 
surprisingly sharp and clear.

> The field of
> view for the above are (at 1,000 ft):  340, 370, 330 feet
> 
> So...can someone explain why the 6x30 would be better than the others
> in a moving craft?  It would seem that they all view the same amount
> of area - so it isn't as though one is incredibly more powerful than
> the others.

They show roughly the same field of view, but at different 
magnifications.  Comparing the monocular to the Nikon means that 
you'll see a smaller image (3/4 the size) of the same view with the 
monocular.  The widest field will seem more like you're there rather 
than looking at a little picture.

If you wear glasses, eye relief is important.  Eye relief is the 
distance between the eyepiece and the focal plane of the binoculars.  
If that distance is short, your glasses will prevent your eye from 
getting close enough to see the whole image.  If long enough, you 
will see the full image.  For that reason, it is important to try the 
binocs/monocs before you buy.

The exit pupil size of these will be different.  The 8x25 have an 
exit pupil of 3mm (25 divided by 8) and the monocular has an exit 
pupil of 5mm (30 divided by 6).  That means that the monocular will 
be easier to see thru most of the time - you are peeking thru a 
bigger hole.  This can be a factor in usability.

Mike
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] binocs vs monocular
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:10:10 -0800
Keith, as a point of reference, this is what I have been using the last five 
years:  http://www.telescopes.net/canon_8_x_23_awp_waterproof_.html

Durable, good eye compensation, small in size, but small exit pupil and not 
very good in dim light.  The waterproof rating is genuine -- I have dropped 
mine in the water a couple times!

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR 
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] binocs vs monocular
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:57:52 -0800
Keith,

Before you commit to a pair of binocs, here are some considerations:

1. Clarity of image -- compare a hundred dollar pair of 8 or 9 power Nikons 
with a forty dollar pair of hardware store binocs.  Sometimes money does not 
equate to better image quality.  My current 8x23 Canon's (cost about $150 
new) have poorer image quality than my old $100 8x23 Nikons.

2. Adjustment to fit differing corrections in your eyes -- I have a 
several-diopter-difference between my left eye and right eye, and many binocs 
can not bring both eyes into focus.  [I am very near-sighted in the left eye 
and only slightly near-sighted in the right eye.]

3. Do you require eyeglasses?  If you intend to wear them while using binocs, 
then you need binocs with fold-down eyecups.  BTW, I find that the image 
quality is much better if I view directly, and the eyecups greatly reduce 
sideglare.  Hence my need for a lot of correction -- per 2. above.

4. Waterproofness:  mandatory if you use them out of your kayak.

5. Diameter of objective lens:  those 6 x 30's will have __half__ the 
light-gathering power of a pair of 6 x 42's, at a relatively small increase 
in bulk and weight, although the 6 x 42's will cost substantially more..

6. Power:  anything over 7 power becomes problematic, most of the time if 
used from the bobbing confines of a cockpit.  I used 8 power binocs for five 
years, and am backing off to 7 power ones this time around.  This means an 
ideal unit for land-based birding (8 to 10 power is good) is not a good one 
for on-the-water viewing.

7. Age of your eyes.  The older our eyes get, the less able they are to open 
the iris for good light gathering in dim conditions.  This means the exit 
pupil diameter coming from a pair of binocs need not be as large for old eyes 
as it can be for younger eyes.  [What's the exit pupil diameter?  It is the 
diameter of the light cone exiting the rear of a pair of binocs.  To get this 
number, divide the power into the diameter of the front (objective) lens.] 
Unfortunately, I don't know what the change is in iris opening with age --  
maybe someone else on Paddlewise will.  You can play around with different 
power binocs and figure out which ones work better for you.  You want a unit 
with a large enough exit pupil to match your largest iris opening in dim 
light ... but anything larger is wasted.  In bright light, your iris opening 
contracts quite a bit, so it will be fully covered by the exit pupil of 
almost any pair of binocs.

HTH.

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR 
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From: Michael Daly <mikedaly_at_magma.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] binocs vs monocular
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:29:20 -0500
On 24 Mar 2005 at 7:57, Dave Kruger wrote:

> I don't know what the change is in iris opening with age --  
> maybe someone else on Paddlewise will

It varies a lot.

It is also easy to measure.  Get a ruler with a millimeter scale and 
stand in front of a mirror.  The light level should be what you are 
interested in (very bright for daylight, very dim for nighttime).  
Let your eyes get used to the light and then look at the reflection 
of your pupil with the ruler held close to your eye.

> You want a unit with a large enough exit pupil to match your
> largest iris opening in dim light ... but anything larger is
> wasted. 

True on land in dim light, but not necessarily in daylight in a 
moving kayak.  If the exit pupil is larger than your eye's pupil then 
you can tolerate a moving eyepiece a bit more than if the exit pupil 
is small.  You're looking through a little hole - the bigger the 
hole, the more your head can move relative to the hole while still 
allowing you to see through it.

Mike
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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] binocs vs monocular
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:00:32 -0800
> Looking for on-water use but also casual in-camp use (e.g., wildlife
> watching although I'm not a "birder" is the true sense of the
> word!).  On-water would be primarily scouting navigational landmarks or
> checking campsites to see if they are empty (e.g., BWCAW trips).

Monocular 6x will be good for scouting landmarks or checking campsites;
besides, Brunton Eterna is compact, light and waterproof. Binocs from 6x  to
8x with large lenses (30 or more) will be more comfortable to look through -
on land - but with power more than 6x they could be too powerful in a
cockpit (image becomes unstabile, very annoying); also, with lenses more
than 40 they become too large and heavy, inconvenient for use in a kayak.

> Recognizing that price dictates quality in some regards - how bad would
the
> $40 pair be?)  Disposable? :o)

Quite possibly - after the first dip.  Go for waterproof ones, and with
independent focusing for each ocular (in binocs).

> With the neoprene float, I'm guessing the monocular isn't really THAT
small
> (6" long)

My old cell phone is 6" long including antenna, still it is very small even
in Aquapack bag \, and can be kept in a *small* PFD pocket (larger pocket is
designated for sandwiches, gloves etc). With 6x30 or 6x40 binocs you'll need
half of available room of your deckbag or day-hatch.
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From: Bruce Stromberg <bstromberg3_at_comcast.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] binocs vs monocular
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 06:18:28 -0600
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (including  
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Check out Eagle Optics, a Wisconsin company. I have a 7x32 Denali 
waterproof and have been very happy with them. Not one of the compacts, 
but not huge. About $90 but I don't recall if that was a sale or a 
reduced ongoing price. Excellent customer service.

For on the water, I've heard that a monocular works well but don't 
haven't done it myself.

Bruce


Keith Wrage wrote:
> OK, the "which binocs should I buy" question has been done several times 
> but I'm asking for some opinions:
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