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From: Michael Daly <mikedaly_at_magma.ca>
subject: [Paddlewise] Electric Bilge Pump
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 15:05:04 -0400
I've documented round 2 of my electric bilge pump saga online.  This 
version was made last year and has been tested thoroughly.  

My first iteration used an AGM battery and an electric switch.  The 
battery was taking up space in the rear compartment and the electric 
switch failed (mechanically, not by flooding).

I replaced the battery with a set of 12 NiMH AA in series and the 
switch with an air button and air switch - the kind used on hot tubs 
and spas.  Details at:

http://www.greatlakeskayaker.ca/pump.html

Mike
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From: Michael Daly <mikedaly_at_magma.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Electric Bilge Pump
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 17:29:58 -0400
On 12 Apr 2005 at 15:25, Keith Wrage wrote:

> A couple of questions:  What kind of operational duty can
> you expect from a set of fully charged batteries?  What is the non-use
> discharge rate (e.g., if left sitting in your boat for 3 weeks, could
> expect the pump to empty your boat 6 times?).

The batteries I bought are 2300mAh NiMH.  The complete set, therefore 
is 14.4V 2.3Ah.  Since my bilge pump draws 0.9A at peak (measured 
from my Attwood 625 - most pumps are less efficient), that means I 
can expect:

2.3Ah/0.9A = 2.6 hours of operation.  

Realistically, the batteries are probably over-rated (most AA NiMH 
are according to one of the digital camera web sites).  As such, I'd 
expect at least 1.5-2 hours of operation.  Since it takes 3-5 minutes 
to empty the kayak (not a full cockpit, but typical of a wet exit) 
then I've got the ability to easily do 25-30 pumpouts on a single 
recharge.  The discharge rate is roughly 0.4C, so I don't expect that 
the time available is reduced significantly by a high current draw.

The worst case that I've done is three pool sessions over two weeks 
and about 6-10 pumpouts per session on a single charge.  Most 
pumpouts were less than 3 minutes, though.  There was lots of 
capacity left, if short recharge times are an indication.

After a month on the shelf, you can expect the batteries to have 
about 60% of their full capacity.  That means about 15-18 pumpouts.

Mike 
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From: Tord Eriksson <tord_at_tord.nu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Electric Bilge Pump
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 23:47:45 +0200
On Tuesday 12 April 2005 21.05, Mike wrote:

> I've documented round 2 of my electric bilge pump saga online.  This
> version was made last year and has been tested thoroughly.  

(snip)

> I replaced the battery with a set of 12 NiMH AA in series and the
> switch with an air button and air switch - the kind used on hot tubs
> and spas.  Details at:
>
> http://www.greatlakeskayaker.ca/pump.html

The battery holders you use are not known for their
reliability! And they can rust as well!

Better solder a pack from the variant of the batteries
that we modelers use; we hate power failures - 
a model airplane without power can be lethal!

My bilge pump is controlled by a switch, normally sold for
turning off and on power on boats. I injected a little oil
and sealed the terminals - works very well (even if my setup
is a bit clumsy - I still use an SLA)!

A problem with NiMHs or NiCads are their relatively
fast self-discharging - NiCads should never be topped off,
while NiMHs don't mind, as long as they don't get overcharged.
Neither should be trickle-charged!

SLA, like all lead-acid batteries, love trickle charge!

Lithiums are actually the best for standby use, like a
bilge pump, as they self-discharge very, very slowly (NiMHs
are worst in that respect).

For my setup see:

http://foldingkayaks.org/gallery/tord

and click on the bilge pump!

New photos and texts, by the way!
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From: Michael Daly <mikedaly_at_magma.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Electric Bilge Pump
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:02:22 -0400
On 12 Apr 2005 at 23:47, Tord Eriksson wrote:

> The battery holders you use are not known for their
> reliability! And they can rust as well!

I'm not worried about rust, as the box is completely waterproof and 
most of my paddling is in fresh water.  If I can get one that holds 
the batteries in place better, it'll be fine.

> Better solder a pack from the variant of the batteries
> that we modelers use; we hate power failures - 
> a model airplane without power can be lethal!

That would prevent me from using a generic AA smart charger - I'd 
have to switch to a higher voltage charger.

> Lithiums are actually the best for standby use, like a
> bilge pump, as they self-discharge very, very slowly (NiMHs
> are worst in that respect).

My usage allows for relatively frequent recharge.  I'm not worried 
about long-term storage and use.  I play around with rolling a lot 
and frequently pump out the kayak.  A long trip for me is one week, 
so self-discharge is not an issue.

BTW - I always carry a manual pump or baler as a backup.

Mike
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From: PeterO <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Electric Bilge Pump
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 22:29:38 +1000
Mike wrote: -
>I replaced the battery with a set of 12 NiMH
>AA in series and the switch with an air button
>and air switch

Tord Eriksson wrote: -
>My bilge pump is controlled by a switch,
>normally sold for turning off and on power
>on boats. I injected a little oil and sealed
>the terminals

G'Day,

I've tried both methods, three sealed electric switches and one air operated
switch. The air operated switch was simpler to install and neater loooking.
I was only able to try one air switch as it hasn't failed after a year and a
half of operation.

All the best, PeterO
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From: Michael Jackson <mhj_at_smus.ca>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Electric Bilge Pump
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 08:15:49 -0700
I too have used a hot tub air switch and am very happy with the result - 
low profile on deck and no worries about water. I have used a sealed lead 
acid battery (2.9 Ah) for power.
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From: <kayakwriter_at_aim.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Electric Bilge Pump
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 14:59:42 -0400
 Hello Mike,
 
 I'm getting ready to install an Attwood V625 in my kayak - basically duplicating your system, oh Mighty One! (since you've done the trial and error). I've got a couple of questions:
 
 1. Would the inline check valve still be preferrable to the curly-Q-in-the-hose idea that came up later in the disscussion around this?
 
 2. How's the air button/switch holding up over time? Is this still the way you would go? If not, any other ideas?
 
 All advice gratefully received.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Philip
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From: Michael Daly <mikedaly_at_magma.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Electric Bilge Pump
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 00:53:59 -0400
kayakwriter_at_aim.com wrote:

> I'm getting ready to install an Attwood V625 in my kayak - basically 
> duplicating your system, oh Mighty One! (since you've done the trial and 
> error). I've got a couple of questions:
> 
> 1. Would the inline check valve still be preferrable to the 
> curly-Q-in-the-hose idea that came up later in the disscussion around this?

Based on price and the functionality of what others I know are getting, 
I'd say use the loop-the-loop.  The check valve has a rare but 
occasional maintenance problem - junk getting stuck in the duck lips and 
letting the valve leak.

> 2. How's the air button/switch holding up over time? Is this still the 
> way you would go? If not, any other ideas?

I have had few problems with this system.  The air button and air switch 
themselves are not a problem.  The only issue is that if you repeatedly 
remove the hose from the connector to remove the battery, the hose gets 
loose.  It's relatively cheap to replace with a new hose.

I initially had a problem with the battery holders not holding the 
batteries tightly.  I replaced them with new, better ones (same design, 
better implementation, slightly higher price - different surplus store 
:-).  With a bit of foam to hold everything snug in the little Peli-box, 
I've had no battery problems since.

The only outstanding problem is with the pump mount.  The base has two 
sets of locking tabs to hold the pump body in place.  The outer ones 
have all failed by fatigue and broken off, so the pump is only held in 
place by the inner ones, which are not as tight.  As a result, I can 
bump the pump off its base.  If I was energetic, I'd replace the base.

Mike
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