Very well put Steve. >In fact, being a recently certified ACA instructor and participating in both >BCU/ACA I have been well informed that it doesn't matter WHO the leader is. >If I am along for a formal or informal paddle and have "more" experience >than the "leader" and conditions of the group paddle became risky I can >still be targeted for Liability. I recently completed the BCU Canoe/kayak Safety Course. At the end of the training we were advised that if we paddled with a group and something bad happened we might be found liable. If a case was brought, the plaintiff's lawyer could contact a BCU coach to present evidence. The question to the BCU expert would be what should the guy with the BCU canoe/safety training have done? If it could be shown I failed to do those things I could be liable. It's good to see the message is consistent. The finial advice from my instructors was only paddle with competent paddlers of at least your ability or greater. Little did I know that those words would be driven home in a very short while. After that course I lead a group of paddlers on a short day trip. Conditions where deteriorating and I informed the group that we would be cutting things short to ensure an easy return. I had the very paddler you described. One who presented with a multitude of safety and bail out options turned down each of them and subsequently threatened the safety of all the others. It was clearly a case of ego vs. prudence. Sometimes the Ego is so big that it prevents people from learning or developing judgement skills - wisdom. After getting everyone safely back I informed the group that I did not have the leadership ability to lead such a group in the conditions we'd just come through and that I would not do so again. It was the most polite way of saying I never want to paddle with you again. The conditions we'd just come through were not difficult by my standards and had I been with my regular group we would have had a blast. But all the joy was sucked out of the day because of the constant attention that had to be paid to this one paddler. When I hear people say, "I'd lead but I'm afraid of being sued," they've just lost a follower. As you said leaders should be thinking about the tasks at hand, about due care and not about some possible law suit. The other side of this coin is that clubs should be training better followers. I am no longer a member of the local club because I feel it does not foster or encourage good safety habits. We talked a good line but, IMO, never followed up. Mostly because it's hard to enforce standards of behaviour. The consequence of this is that indifferent paddlers stick around clubs while advanced paddlers drift away. I think this is what weakens what should be good healthy clubs. Yet if you look at membership numbers the local club is a screaming success. It all depends on how you measure success. Which brings me back to my original question show me the numbers. How many clubs have been successfully sued, what were the circumstances, (did they deserve to be sued) and what was the judgement/fine/penalty? If some one has access to a legal data base I'd love to hear from you. Gordin Warner Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Very well put Steve. > > > >In fact, being a recently certified ACA instructor and participating > >in both BCU/ACA I have been well informed that it doesn't matter WHO > >the leader is. If I am along for a formal or informal paddle and have > >"more" experience than the "leader" and conditions of the group > >paddle became risky I can still be targeted for Liability. > > > I recently completed the BCU Canoe/kayak Safety Course. At the end of > the training we were advised that if we paddled with a group and > something bad happened we might be found liable. If a case was > brought, the plaintiff's lawyer could contact a BCU coach to present > evidence. The question to the BCU expert would be what should the guy > with the BCU canoe/safety training have done? If it could be shown I > failed to do those things I could be liable. > Paddling with a medical doctor at one time and it was pointed out that regardless of _anything_ else, the doctor was liable if proper medical care was not given to someone who had a problem on the trip. Because of their qualifications, they were responsible for medical care whether they desired it or not. I guess the same applies to someone who has any kind of official qualifications. If they hold a BCU certificate, then there would be ground for going after them if the group was led into a situation that _should_ have been avoidable, even if they were not the "leader" at the time. Unfortunately, all I draw from this is that it is good to have no qualifications of _any_ kind: paddling, first aid, survival, etc. If I can "prove" I am unskilled, then I cannot be held liable for allowing someone else to do something stupid. Hopefully, I can be skilled, but not qualified. -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Darryl wrote: > Unfortunately, all I draw from this is that it is good to have no > [documented] > qualifications of _any_ kind: paddling, first aid, survival, etc. If > I can "prove" I am unskilled, then I cannot be held liable for > allowing someone else to do something stupid. And, this situation is intolerable ... how do we get out of this conundrum? There must be a way to undo or ameliorate all of the case law which has established this legal "principle." Like Darryl, I have a completely undocumented quiver of skills ... which makes me less exposed to liability than someone with advanced certificates. And, I should feel good about this? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think the answer to the conundrum is that the sky may not be falling..... This is the root of Gordin's query, "show my the numbers." I don't think that law suits have been rampant. I few I am sure (see below). But we was normal, reactive, interested, concerned parties over react and over talk the negative possibilities and it is getting in the way of just being good, responsible, NORMALLY CAREFUL participants. FWIW, Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/8/2005 5:34:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, kdruger_at_pacifier.com writes: And, this situation is intolerable ... how do we get out of this conundrum? There must be a way to undo or ameliorate all of the case law which has established this legal "principle." Mark Twain/Samuel Clements had the answer, we should have listened. Tony Niilus *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:42 PDT