I got bollixed up and misused "weather helming" to refer to a boat which was lee cocking. I did not realize weather helm was an exact substitute for weathercock. Does anybody have a link to an authoritative etymology of these terms? Thanks a heap. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave wrote: - >I got bollixed up and misused "weather helming" >to refer to a boat which was lee cocking. I did >not realize weather helm was an exact substitute >for weathercock. >Does anybody have a link to an authoritative etymology >of these terms? G'Day Dave, Kayakwiki (<http://kayakwiki.org/index.php/Weathercocking> and <http://kayakwiki.org/index.php/Skeg>) describes weathercocking, leecocking and lee helm, but doesn't mention weather helm. Last time this came up in a debate on skeg's and rudders I remember seeing a post written by Kris Buttermore describing skeg's, It was on a site associated with Guillemot Kayaks. The site uses all four terms. Kris uses three. http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-bin/Technique/index.cgi/noframes/read/23212 . Kris' usage suggested a subtle difference for the terms weathercock and weather helm, or leecock and lee helm. The part word "helm" seemed to be used to indicate a property of the boat or what the helmsman had to do to correct its tendency to turn up or down wind and the suffix "cock" or "cocking" to indicate what the boat did. A bit like Indonesian that uses prefixes and suffixes with imported western words to turn them into verbs, nouns, adjectives etc. Quoting from the page just to illustrate: - "The skeg simply prevents unwanted turning into the wind (weathercocking) and balances the hull to the wind (neutral weatherhelm)" and "Since a rudder acts like a fully deployed skeg it can actually make some otherwise well balance boats leecock" Further support for this is in the number of usages as a present participle on the internet. As a rough check try looking up weathercocking (874), weatherhelming (50), leecocking (236), lee helming (146). Worth noting that an internet search suggests hardly anyone in the sailing community uses the word leecock which seems to be mainly used by kayakers. Anyway as I understand it the more common usage is that "weathercock" is when a boat turns up wind and weather helm the property of a boat or possibly what one does to a boat, that makes it turn up wind. Likewise "lee helm" is the property of a boat that makes it turn down wind etc and to a smaller extent kayakers using "leecock" for when a kayak turns downwind. Maybe all a load of dingo kidneys though!! Can any sailors shed further light? All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave wrote: - >I got bollixed up and misused "weather helming" >to refer to a boat which was lee cocking. I did >not realize weather helm was an exact substitute >for weathercock. >Does anybody have a link to an authoritative etymology >of these terms? G'Day Dave, Its suprisingly hard to find authoritative definitions let alone etymology. Here's an interesting one from an 1847 text that you've probably seen already, plus a few others. WEATHER HELM & LEE HELM http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Etymology/English/Kipping(1847).html "Weather Helm. - A ship is said to carry a weather helm when she is inclined to come too near the wind, and therefore requires the helm to be kept constantly a little to windward. " The tendency of a boat to head up toward the eye of the wind. The opposite of lee helm. www.terrax.org/sailing/glossary/gw.aspx When the tiller has to be held off the centre line and toward the weather side or wind to keep a boat on its course. www.amya.org/sailmanual/appendix2.html The natural tendency o a sailboat to turn toward the wind, which the helmsman feels as the tiller tries to turn to leeward. www.dungeoneering.net/features.php5 WEATHERCOCKING AND LEECOCKING http://kayakwiki.org/index.php/Weathercocking Weathercocking is the name given to the tendency of a kayak to turn into the wind when moving forward. The opposite of weathercocking is leecocking. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PeterO wrote: > Its suprisingly hard to find authoritative definitions let alone etymology. > Here's an interesting one from an 1847 text that you've probably seen > already, plus a few others. > > > WEATHER HELM & LEE HELM > > http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Etymology/English/Kipping(1847).html > "Weather Helm. - A ship is said to carry a weather helm when she is inclined > to come too near the wind, and therefore requires the helm to be kept > constantly a little to windward. " > > The tendency of a boat to head up toward the eye of the wind. The opposite > of lee helm. > www.terrax.org/sailing/glossary/gw.aspx > > When the tiller has to be held off the centre line and toward the weather > side or wind to keep a boat on its course. > www.amya.org/sailmanual/appendix2.html > > The natural tendency o a sailboat to turn toward the wind, which the > helmsman feels as the tiller tries to turn to leeward. > www.dungeoneering.net/features.php5 > > > WEATHERCOCKING AND LEECOCKING > > http://kayakwiki.org/index.php/Weathercocking > Weathercocking is the name given to the tendency of a kayak to turn into the > wind when moving forward. The opposite of weathercocking is leecocking. Thanks, Peter, that is an impressive selection of sources. I think I am satisfied. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
...Or, to put it more simply, "weathercock" and "leecock" are the verb forms, and "weather helm" and "lee helm" are the noun forms. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 9/24/06, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > > I got bollixed up and misused "weather helming" to refer to a boat which > was lee cocking. I did not realize weather helm was an exact substitute for > weathercock. > > Does anybody have a link to an authoritative etymology of these terms? Other replies have given a pretty good list of sources for the etymology but I'm not sure they explained exactly what "weather helm" is. First the term: "Weather helm" is the term used when the sailboat's tendency to turn into the wind has to be countered by holding the tiller towards the side of the boat the wind is blowing against (the "weather" side). But, you may well be asking, why does it want to turn into the wind? It's the combination of wind pushing against the sails and the resistance of the keel against the water. Take a simple example of a sloop with one mast having a "main sail" mounted on the aft of the mast and a "jib sail" forward). If you look at a side view of a sloop you will notice that the mast is stepped forward of the center of the boat (often waaay forward). With no sails up a sloop will tend to "fall off" the wind (turn downwind or "leecock") because the wind blowing against the side of the boat will be pushing against mostly the mast. The combination of wind thrust forward and keel resistance aft will rotate the boat downwind. If the sloop has only the main up then the wind thrust aft will overcome the keel resistance aft and the sailboat will rotate into the wind. Most sloops have their greatest weather helm if only the main is up. But even with the main and the jib most sailboats will still exhibit some weather helm because it's safest; if the helmsman falls overboard the boat will turn into the wind and stop. There are technical names for these forces, you may not be surprised to learn: The sum of all the wind forces acting on all the parts of the boat that are above the water is a point known as the "center of effort". The sum of all the water forces acting on all the parts of the hull that are below the water is known as the "center of lateral resistance". On any boat, any time the center of effort is aft of the center of lateral resistance that boat, left to its own devices, will rotate into the wind (weathercock) and any time it's forward of the center of lateral resistance the boat will rotate downwind (leecock). This all works exactly the same on a kayak too. Just imagine that it's your body poking up into the wind that's acting as a sail (and for some of us there is more sail than for others of us). If your body is forward of the center of lateral resistance then the kayak will tend rotate downwind (leecock). If you don't want it to do this you can either move the center of effort aft or move the center of lateral resistance forward. Take a look at your kayak from the side. Chances are that the cockpit is slightly aft of the middle of the boat. In this case your kayak will almost certainly have a tendency to weathercock or turn into the wind. If moving your seating position to maximum doesn't change the way your kayak handles in wind then you have to make some adjustments. This is why a small adjustable skeg changes the way your kayak reacts in the wind so effectively; it moves the center of lateral resistance. Remember that when the center of effort (um... that would be you, mostly) is aft of the center of lateral resistance (the sum of all the underwater resistance forces acting on your kayak's hull) your boat will weathercock. Moving that center of lateral resistance aft will tend to neutralize that and an adjustable skeg can be used to create exactly the right balance between wind and water so you go more-or-less straight. What if you don't have an adjustable skeg? Well, if your kayak is weathercocking so much that you find it difficult to control, you could add some windage forward or subtract some windage aft. A great huge pile of gear in one spot or another is bound to do it. <grin> But there are easier ways. You could simply deploy - but not necessarily use - your rudder. As soon as you deploy your rudder you have added an effective keel and subtracted an effective sail; both way aft on your boat. This moves the center of effort forward and the center of lateral resistance aft. So if your kayak is uncontrollably turning into the wind merely putting the rudder into the water should help. But, because the rudder is so far aft (and because it's difficult to just deploy the rudder a little bit), it's possible that you could turn a kayak that weathercocks into one that leecocks. The rudder also can add a turning moment to the equation but this is only effective when the hull is moving forward or backwards through the water. And it works by adding resistance to that movement and "pushing" the stern to one side or the other and thereby making the bow point at something else. You can overcome a great deal of your boat's natural tendency to leecock or weathercock by using a rudder but it will always add at least some drag; the more the rudder has to overcome the greater the drag. What if you have neither a rudder nor a skeg? Well there are still ways to change the balance of your kayak but most of the easy ones aren't available to you. You'll have to have some understanding of your kayak and how to change its balance (that is, the balance between center of effort and center of lateral resistance... not the tippy sort of balance). During the last spate of weathercocking posts several people mentioned that if they load their kayaks differently they can alter its behavior in wind. This is because they are changing both the center of effort (windage) and the center of lateral resistance. If the bow of your kayak sticks waaaay up in the wind that adds windage forward (moves the center of effort forward) and makes the boat more likely to leecock. Adding gear in the foward compartment sinks the bow deeper in the water and reduces windage (moves the center of effort aft) while adding to the effective keel area (moving the center of lateral resistance forward). Likewise, adding weight aft sinks the stern of the boat reducing windage and moving the center of effort forward while simultaneously moving the center of lateral resistance aft. The same things happen when you move your seat forward and backwards; the balance between center of effort and center of resistance changes. So if you have no skeg or rudder you will need to evaluate the weather and sea conditions for your trip. Of course, we should all do this anyway and most of us who paddle regularly understand pretty well what conditions cause our kayaks to become difficult to handle. But those without access to quick changes in their boat's balance need to be more closely aware of these conditions. So Dave... you asked what time it was and I more-or-less told you how to build a watch. Hope it helped. :) Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > So Dave... you asked what time it was and I more-or-less told you how to > build a watch. Hope it helped. :) Busy building the watch, and altering my center of effort by consuming mass quantities of beer! Stuff must be good for you -- has B vitamins in it! -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 9/25/06, Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com> wrote: > > On any boat, any time the center of effort is aft of the center of lateral > resistance that boat, left to its own devices, will rotate into the wind > (weathercock) and any time it's forward of the center of lateral > resistance > the boat will rotate downwind (leecock). I wanted to expand a little bit on Craig's excellent treatise on balance in sailboats and kayaks. Before I started kayaking, I sailed small boats (14') competitively. It turns out, as Craig mentioned, that boats go fastest when the rudder is not actively steering the boat (i.e. when one does not have to put pressure on the tiller or foot pedals). A sailboat with a large amount of weather or lee helm will experience additional drag because of the steering required. One exercise we sometimes employed was to pull out the rudder and steer the boat entirely with the sails and our position in the boat. This taught us how to balance the sailboat for optimal efficiency - and provided some entertainment to people watching. Where this whole topic becomes really critical is in windsurfing. Since windsurfers have no rudders, they can only be steered by balancing the center of lateral resistance against the center of effort, i.e. by rotating the mast/sail fore and aft or, to a lesser degree, shifting one's weight on the board. So, while most boats are more efficient when properly balanced, a windsurfer will not even sail when out of balance. Or, as Miyoko Ohno said, "Balance is beautiful" -Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > > Busy building the watch, and altering my center of effort by consuming > mass quantities of beer! Stuff must be good for you -- has B vitamins > in it! I have heard it said that Irish Coffee is the only thing that has all 4 critical food groups in it: sugar, fat, caffeine and alcohol. GaryJ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tuesday 26 September 2006 13:18, Craig wrote: (snip) > What if you have neither a rudder nor a skeg? Well there are still ways > to change the balance of your kayak but most of the easy ones aren't > available to you. You'll have to have some understanding of your kayak > and how to change its balance (that is, the balance between center of > effort and center of lateral resistance... not the tippy sort of > balance). > > During the last spate of weathercocking posts several people mentioned > that if they load their kayaks differently they can alter its behavior > in wind. This is because they are changing both the center of effort > (windage) and the center of lateral resistance. If the bow of your kayak > sticks waaaay up in the wind that adds windage forward (moves the center > of effort forward) and makes the boat more likely to leecock. Adding > gear in the foward compartment sinks the bow deeper in the water and > reduces windage (moves the center of effort aft) while adding to the > effective keel area (moving the center of lateral resistance forward). > Likewise, adding weight aft sinks the stern of the boat reducing windage > and moving the center of effort forward while simultaneously moving the > center of lateral resistance aft. > > The same things happen when you move your seat forward and backwards; > the balance between center of effort and center of resistance changes. > > So if you have no skeg or rudder you will need to evaluate the weather > and sea conditions for your trip. Of course, we should all do this > anyway and most of us who paddle regularly understand pretty well what > conditions cause our kayaks to become difficult to handle. But those > without access to quick changes in their boat's balance need to be more > closely aware of these conditions. Excellent explanation, Craig (hope you're well!)! After having some leecocking problems we found that our Klepper Aerius II behaved very well when we added a oversize rudder and a mizzen, as the leecocking effect is compensated by the weathercocking effect of the mizzen. By releasing the mizzen sheet the boat turns downwind easily, and vice versa. So we always carry the mizzen, while the other sails (and mast) are used when we want to! Nice to be back on Paddlewise! Tord, Sweden www.foldingkayaks.org/gallery/tord And how we load the boat doesn't affect it at all - as the power of the rudder and the mizzen is far greater than the effect of the hull, or equipment strapped to the forward deck! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Tord! Nice to see you back. On 9/27/06, Tord Eriksson <tord_at_tord.nu> wrote: > > > Excellent explanation, Craig (hope you're well!)! Very well thanks. :) > After having some leecocking problems we found that our Klepper Aerius II > behaved very well when we added a oversize rudder and a mizzen, as the > leecocking effect is compensated by the weathercocking effect of the > mizzen. By releasing the mizzen sheet the boat turns downwind easily, and > vice versa. Not many of us can put a mizzen on our kayaks. For those who do not know what a "mizzen" an explanation is in order. On kayaks the mizzen is typically set aft of the cockpit which should put it well aft of the center of resistance. So we always carry the mizzen, while the other sails (and mast) are used > when we want to! Have you experienced any problems with a tendency to capsize when the mizzen is hit by a gust of wind from the outrigger-side? I'd be very careful to keep the sheets running clear because with the mizzen mounted aft of the cockpit should the sheets jam it could become messy. It will also add drag; but if you're sailing who cares? <grin> And how we load the boat doesn't affect it at all - as the power of the > rudder and the mizzen is far greater than the effect of the hull, or > equipment strapped to the forward deck! > I wouldn't think they would with the combination of a rudder AND a sail at the aft end of boat. Sailboat skippers routinely play with the combinations of sails to make the wind help them maneuver their boat. I routinely set a jib when I'm running across a river bar along the Washington, Oregon and Calif coastlines (where the wind is typically onwhore) to help prevent a broach in the following seas. When I approach a mooring from upwind I drop the jib (and keep the main set) as I pass the mooring and then turn hard into the wind. The main helps scoot the boat around and with luck the boat stops with the bow into the wind and within reach of the mooring. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Concerning the cause of weathercocking James wrote: >The > reason being that the bow is cleaving "still" water and, thus, wants to > go straight whereas the stern is moving through perturbed water (the > wake) and, therefore, is easily moved to the side. and GaryJ wrote >>>>>as a result of the fact that the bow makes waves, and to turn the bow youhave to lift it over or through those waves. The stern on the other hand is ell between the bow waves and can move back and forth more easily. <<<<< The cause of weather helm is not the bow wave or the turbulence. These are both rather side effects (literally) of the cause. The cause is the pressure difference between the front and back of a moving hull. A stationary hull has equal pressure all around but move that hull in any direction and the pressure will be greater on the part that is in the direction of the movement (usually, but not necessarily, towards the bow). Add a side wind to this moving hull and it will blow the part of the hull where there is less pressure resisting the side wind further in a given time than the part with the greater pressure. While both ends are moving downwind the stern is moving faster downwind than the bow so one has the impression that they are turning into the wind. Craig wrote a long and nearly completely accurate description but I was frustrated that he seemed to ignore the pressure difference aspect created by a moving hull but rather treated the subject more from a static point of view. To quote him: >>>>>>The sum of all the wind forces acting on all the parts of the boat that are above the water is a point known as the "center of effort". The sum of all the water forces acting on all the parts of the hull that are below the water is known as the "center of lateral resistance". On any boat, any time the center of effort is aft of the center of lateral resistance that boat, left to its own devices, will rotate into the wind (weathercock) and any time it's forward of the center of lateral resistance the boat will rotate downwind (leecock).<<<<<<< Absolutely true, but until you understand that it is very hard to create a lee helm in a kayak because of the natural weather helm created by the pressure differences you aren't getting a real understanding. The very fact of moving the kayak forward moves the center of lateral resistance forward as well. Moving the kayak backwards moves the center of lateral resistance aft. While I agree with everything Craig says I think a couple of the things may be misleading. For example Craig wrote: >>>>>>>Take a look at your kayak from the side. Chances are that the cockpit is slightly aft of the middle of the boat. In this case your kayak will almost certainly have a tendency to weathercock or turn into the wind. If moving your seating position to maximum doesn't change the way your kayak handles in wind then you have to make some adjustments.<<<<<<<< >From the above true statement one is likely to draw exactly the wrong conclusions (and I think Craig is misinterpreting the reasons for weather helm--although his statement is still true because of the predominance of weather helm). Since almost all kayaks have a tendency to weathercock the statement is true but it is not due to the cockpit being further to the rear than center as is implied here. If one moves the cockpit it will either change the hull's trim or the shape of the hull design underwater will have to be changed in order to keep the trim level. If you let the trim change by just moving the paddler further back you will find that the kayak will weather helm less (not more as is implied here). This is because water is a lot denser than air. The change in the wind water couple from sinking the stern deeper and raising the bow more out of the water (both moving the center of lateral resistance aft and the kayak's center of windage forward) will therefore do much more than compensate for the shift in the paddlers windage aft. Note also that the paddler's windage is close to the balance (or pivot) point so is not given much of a lever to act compared with the bow and stern changes due to change in trim. In our (Mariner) kayaks with instantly adjustable sliding seats one shifts the seat back to reduce a weather helm and it is quite effective. If you compensate for a weight shift (caused by moving the paddler to the rear) by making the kayak hull design more Swede-form (finer bow and fuller stern) to maintain a level trim you are also changing the areas of the moving hull that are under increased and decreased pressure as well as changing the pressure itself. In so doing you are also moving the balance point (center of lateral resistance) of that moving hull. Even if the hull is static you are likely to find that the windage from the paddler remains close to the neutral point because of the changes you had to make to keep the hull floating level and their effect on its center of lateral resistance. Finally, I think leecocking is a misnomer but is an understandable one (and I have no objections to its use). If weather cocking refers the rooster shape of a traditional weathervane then maybe we should use "asscocking", "cockbutting", or the more genteel "tailfeathering" to describe this cockamamie behavior in a kayak ;-) Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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