Here is the answer I sent Gary earlier today. From: skimmer <skimmer_at_enter.net> To: garyj_at_rogers.com, paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Proposed new PFD use rules Send reply to: skimmer_at_enter.net Date sent: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 21:17:47 4 Hi Gary, I am just explaining why we are where we are. I am interested to see what folks think about the proposal. To this point, nothing has worked to get boaters to wear PFDs. I have provided the website and dates for folks to send public comment to PA Fish and Boat. Their comments will not ever be made public by PA Fand B, however. It will be shouting into a vaccuum. The basic nature of responses I have received so far is something like... "Too bad about those ignorant novices, It's just Darwin's laws at work, I refuse to be regulated, and it won't happen to me anyway." Since folks seem to accept the requirement to have Pfds at least in the boat, and since they don't help anyone that has fallen out of the boat, I have been thinking about requiring just a picture of a Pfd in the boat (one pfd picture for each person in the boat). The value of a pfd in a boat to someone that has gone over the side is the same as owning one, but leaving it home in the garage. Chuck Sutherland Thanks, Chuck Sutherland *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
skimmer wrote: > Here is the answer I sent Gary earlier today. > Hi Gary, > I am just explaining why we are where we are. I am interested to > see what folks think about the proposal. To this point, nothing has > worked to get boaters to wear PFDs. I have provided the website > and dates for folks to send public comment to PA Fish and Boat. > Their comments will not ever be made public by PA Fand B, > however. It will be shouting into a vaccuum. And to PAddlewise: > Since folks seem to accept the requirement to have Pfds at least in > the boat, and since they don't help anyone that has fallen out of the > boat, I have been thinking about requiring just a picture of a Pfd in > the boat (one pfd picture for each person in the boat). The value of > a pfd in a boat to someone that has gone over the side is the same > as owning one, but leaving it home in the garage. Sorry, but if you use this argument then you are also suggesting that any and all other safety equipment should be employed full time. ==> A Type III PFD is as much good as a photo if the person is unconscious and face-first, so lets require full-floatation deep-sea life preservers for everyone. ==> People might not be able to brace upright, or roll up, so all boats should not just have Timmy's spittoons but double outriggers for stability. ==> etc etc Sorry, Chuck, but life is not completely safe. This same logic would put outriggers on bicycles, along with a couple of dozen strobe lights. And etc etc. GaryJ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
GaryJ wrote: > Sorry, Chuck, but life is not completely safe. This same logic would put > outriggers on bicycles, along with a couple of dozen strobe lights. And etc etc. Gary, That argument has a few flaws in its logic too. Basically you're saying that airbags shouldn't be required in cars, helmets on motorcycles or bicycles, etc. While a pfd won't prevent all drownings, it will certainly prevent a lot more than occur now. Steve Holtzman Southern Calif *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I agree, Steve, that that line of argument logically leads to total paralysis. does apply to the real world. In reality I do think that a benefit-cost argument can be applied to most of these things. ======== Requiring that PFDs be worn at all times will save some lives, but degrade others by making the recreation a bit less fun. A small decrease in enjoyment multiplied by millions of hours will give a very large value to preserving the choice for the operator to use the safety equipment when it apears warranted by conditions. ======== So does the requirement get extended to larger boats? Is that in length, width, wieght, or some combination formula? Is is any canoe or kayak? What about a pirogue--a person might call some of those canoes? Who decides if it is a canoe? The builder? The owner? Some government panel decides it is a kayak or canoe based on what (see above for potential items in a formula)? ======== All this and we haven't even talked about risk homeostasis, and to deal with that via regulations you need to mandate ======== I wear a PFD 99.5% of the time. I do it by choice not by fiat. Once in a while I take it off. ======== GaryJ Steve Holtzman wrote: > GaryJ wrote: > > >>Sorry, Chuck, but life is not completely safe. This same logic would put >>outriggers on bicycles, along with a couple of dozen strobe lights. And etc etc. > > > Gary, > > That argument has a few flaws in its logic too. Basically you're saying that airbags shouldn't be required in cars, helmets on motorcycles or bicycles, etc. > > While a pfd won't prevent all drownings, it will certainly prevent a lot more than occur now. > > Steve Holtzman > Southern Calif *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I am personally sure that wearing a pfd is essential to the fact that I am still around, as was it that my wife had one, too. Swimming in near freezing water is never a thing to take lightly, even less so when you are 50+! And I think anyone paddling in cold water (unless wearing a very good dry suit) should wear one, as it decreases the heat loss very drastically. And if you get knocked about in a rock garden a pfd could mean the difference between getting away alive or not, by protecting your upper body from the sharpest rocks and the worst bumps, just as wearing a helmet is! Yours, Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I am personally sure that wearing a pfd > is essential to the fact that I am still around, > as was it that my wife had one, too. Swimming > in near freezing water is never a thing > to take lightly, even less so when you > are 50+! > > And I think anyone paddling in cold water > (unless wearing a very good dry suit) > should wear one, as it decreases the > heat loss very drastically. > > And if you get knocked about in a > rock garden a pfd could mean the > difference between getting away alive > or not, by protecting your upper body > from the sharpest rocks and the worst > bumps, just as wearing a helmet is! > > > Yours, > > Tord I just wear my pfd all the time because I am not a strong swimmer, I'm getting too old to do all that work to keep myself afloat without one, and the old heart isn't in the best of shape, so anything I can do to reduce the workload is "a good thing". Beside, you got to store it *somewhere*, and I hate stuff on my decks. And I'd never get to it of it was stuffed behind the seat, let alone put it on once I was in the water. -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't think that the value of a PFD is the core of the issue here; no one is going to say that a PFD is useless. The issue, as far as I'm concerned, is the *requirement* to wear one regardless of the circumstances. Just as there are situations in which one would be stupid not to wear a PFD (as well as take along other safety equipment) there are also times when actually wearing the PFD is not all that important. This is why I was so sarcastic in my posting about simply passing a law against death and being done with it (a sarcasm which appears to have been largely lost). If *they* pass a law requiring me to wear a PFD then I'll have to wear one even when I'm paddling from my dock across to the grass islands to have lunch. In air temps of 98F over water that's 84F. I'll wear the damn thing because otherwise it will give the sheriff's patroll boats an excuse to come over and make comments about how truly experienced boaters always wear their PFDs. And that will raise my blood pressure to the point where it will likely be unsafe because none of those boys in that patrol boat will have a fraction of the experience in boats that I have. This past summer 5 of us were obviously practicing rescue drills in kayaks in front of our lake house. The sheriff's patrol came over and wanted to know if we had whistles. Perhaps enough of us raised our hands to indicate that we did, indeed, have whistles... but not all of us had one. More importantly, under those circumstances NONE OF US NEEDED THEM. There was no wind, we weren't drunk, we weren't doing unsafe maneuvers, we were all paddling kayaks that were either expedition grade or rock-garden grade (all either Nimbus or Mariners), several of us were wearing full drysuits in addition to a PFD and yet they STILL came over to see if we had whistles. I don't like living in a country where a police agency can question clearly competent (if not expert) people just to show that they can. It's not likely we'll be able to train law-enforcement officers enough to give them the ability to recognize competent people when they see them (and then leave them alone). So I'm in favor of not giving them another tool enabling them to stop and question everyone on a whim. Craig Jungers Radical in Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > I don't like living in a country where a police agency can question clearly > competent (if not expert) people just to show that they can. > > It's not likely we'll be able to train law-enforcement officers enough to > give them the ability to recognize competent people when they see them (and > then leave them alone). So I'm in favor of not giving them another tool > enabling them to stop and question everyone on a whim. Great rant, Craig. I'm on your side. I'm also sad for the Moms and Dads who may have lost a kid because the kid drowned, whose life might have been saved by wearing a PFD. And for the drowned kid. In the end, if it does become mandatory, some will not die who might have, some will die anyway because the PFD could not save them anyhow, and others will die because they did not wear it, even though the law mandates it. I'm a personal responsibility advocate, an education advocate, and not one for a mandatory PFD rule. But, I sure don't like it when a kid dies because his parent did not take responsibility for the kid's safety. If it becomes mandatory for kids to wear PFD's, that might make some sense, in the same way helmets are mandatory for under-16 kids on bikes (here in Oregon, anyway). But, I don't buy it for adults: "adults" should be able to be responsible for things like that, and they should not need me, in loco parentis, to make them wear one when conditions they should. Some will live by their choices, and a small number will die. I think that is an unfortunate reality, and that we lose something valuable when we take away that responsibility from individuals. For the record, the guys I boat with follow their own rule and wear the PFD, every day, every boat. No reason not to. But, when I body surfed, board surfed, I did not wear one. Would not have made sense, and in really big surf, one would have been a liability. I want to be able to make that choice, to be responsible for myself. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 10/15/06, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > > > I'm also sad for the Moms and Dads who may have lost a kid because the kid > drowned, whose life might have been saved by wearing a PFD. And for the > drowned kid. In Washington State any child under 12 is required to be wearing an appropriate (not just *any*) PFD when the vessel is underway and whenever the child is on the open deck of any vessel under 19 feet. Not that unreasonable in my opinion. It is a fact of life that some parents pay little attention to the safety of their own children and I don't quibble with laws that effectively deal with this. But there must be a law of "inescapable escalation" in these regulations that says if a requirement for the innocent is good then a requirement for everyone must be even better. In Washington State the original seatbelt laws were passed with the understanding that the police couldn't use that as PC (probable cause) for a vehicle stop. Within a few years they changed that too. My 17-yr-old son was actually jailed for not wearing his seat belt. Officer's discretion. His car was left along a highway with no one in attendance and by the time we got to it there was damage. We have so many laws that are "for our own good" that I fear greatly that our free country hasn't really been free for a good many years. One small step at a time we're all going to be boiled frogs. I just became a grandpa and kids are important to me but I am not willing to live in a police state just to keep every single person - child or adult - totally and completely safe. Craig Jungers Still Radical in Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] Craig Jungers wrote: > I don't think that the value of a PFD is the core of the issue here; no one > is going to say that a PFD is useless. The issue, as far as I'm concerned, > is the *requirement* to wear one regardless of the circumstances. 1. I saw the sarcasm in the law against death, I just thought that there was nothing more to be said, especially after Doug's comment about just throwing them in a hole in the ground. 2. Otherwise agree wholeheartedly on your assessment. 3. Re the sherriff's boys, since you were in shallow water, and in and out of the boats, I think you should have told them you were swimming not boating, and the boats were just water toys. 4. I do think that various police marine patrols in many places find it easier to pullup to paddlers and check their gear than to chase down the water lice and check *their* gear. GaryJ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 10/15/06, Gary J. MacDonald <garyj_at_rogers.com> wrote: > > 1. I saw the sarcasm in the law against death, I just thought that there > was nothing more to be said, especially after Doug's comment about just > throwing them in a hole in the ground. I think that was Michael Daly's comment... but I wouldn't bet on it. Either of them would be fully capable. :) 4. I do think that various police marine patrols in many places find it > easier to pullup to paddlers and check their gear than to chase down the > water lice and check *their* gear. We also own - and ride - jet skiis but so far it's been exactly zero times the patrol has queried us on those. I believe that legislators pass laws simply to be seen to be "doing something" regardless of whether the law has any real meaning. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 10/15/2006 10:01:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, crjungers_at_gmail.com writes: I believe that legislators pass laws simply to be seen to be "doing something" regardless of whether the law has any real meaning. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Craig, you are way too nice, let me tell you and everyone else a little bit of truth. I live down the street from our state assemblyperson. A more shocking dullard could not be found anywhere. Even my wife, a long time (fill in the party) will not vote for the assemblyperson as (__________) is such a moron. I don't want this imbecile anywhere nearer than 6000 miles from my sport. I don't want any politician or bureaucrat trying to regulate what is as essential a freedom as moving from one place to another. Just because I choose to do so in a kayak doesn't make me now subject to that hydra in Washington or its kin in Olympia, Washington. Frankly, I'm surprised people want to invite the government into their lives even moreso. If I choose not to wear a PFD, Chuck, please respect my right to do so. I am not your parent or anyone elses. Make your own decision, teach your kids your decision, but do not expect me to be the standard bearer for yours or anyone elses kids. If you are really interested in saving lives, raise the driving age to 18, as they take others with them. If I make a calculation that the PFD raises my risk under a certain set of conditions it means I thought about it and made an educated decision. I do not want your government actuarial tables intruding on my decision. That said, I RARELY forego a PFD's use. It is a part of my kit, my body armor and floatation. It holds my stuff and my water. But, I don't want the Bozo from up the street telling me it's got to be on 24/7 or I get a ticket from the revenue generators in blue. I'll go back to being a nice guy in a few minutes, sorry for the rant. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] From: "Craig Jungers" <crjungers_at_gmail.com> > This past summer 5 of us were obviously practicing rescue drills in kayaks > in front of our lake house. The sheriff's patrol came over and wanted to > know if we had whistles. Perhaps enough of us raised our hands to indicate > that we did, indeed, have whistles... Craig, next time the Sheriff's people ask you if you have a whistle, try this response: "Of course I have a whistle. I just put my lips together and blow". Works every time. Bradford R. Crain Department of Mathematics and Statistics Portland State University 724 SW Harrison St. 334 Neuberger Hall Portland, Or. 97201 e-mail: crainb_at_pdx.edu phone: 503-725-3127 fax: 503-725-3661 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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