I understand that talking about pfds is a "shoot the messenger" topic. I do appreciate all your thoughtful diatribes anyway. In my own defense, my second sentence reported that the PA public comment period for PA Fish and Boat rule making runs until Nov 14, 2006. No doubt you didn't read that far before firing off your responses to the proposed legislation. I think the most likely rule making will be to require PFDs in the Oct-May cold water season. Even that is likely to induce a Katrina- grade hurricane response that PA Fish and Boat is unlikely to be able to withstand (make that a Full Scale-Second amendment NRA grade response against manditory PFD use even on 34 o F water in a northeast winter storm). All fair enough--but rescue divers should not be required to spend weeks searching for the bodies of folks that are determined to wear countless layers of woolies out on the water in those sleet storms. I say Tough guys that go to the bottom should stay on the bottom! I can write this crap too, by golly! But about Kids! Two states still do not require children to wear pfds. Twice in the past two years fathers have gone fishing with a son that has fallen overboard. In both cases, the fathers jumped in to save their sons and in both cases father and son went to the bottom. Tell me that it is ok for fathers to take their sons to the bottom with them because we must preserve our god given freedom of choice no matter who pays the price! Best regards, Chuck Sutherland *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 14:50:57 4, skimmer <skimmer_at_enter.net> wrote: > > > But about Kids! Two states still do not require children to wear pfds. > Twice in the past two years fathers have gone fishing with a son > that has fallen overboard. In both cases, the fathers jumped in to > save their sons and in both cases father and son went to the > bottom. Tell me that it is ok for fathers to take their sons to the > bottom with them because we must preserve our god given freedom > of choice no matter who pays the price! It's a tragedy that people are stupid. It's a tragedy that they kill their kids (and themselves) through their stupidity. But tens of thousands of men and women have given their lives to preserve a freedom that should not go down the drain to the rafrain of, "if we can save just one life it will be worh it." How far do we go down this road before their sacrifice is in vain? If we are to save just one more life (innocent or not) where will we stop? Take this to the logical end. Will we require a daily permit in order to boat? Will we make everyone launch at "approved" ramps where all gear is inspected? Will we require "credentials" from everyone on the water that attest to their passing one course or another? Don't all these look like "paper solutions" to you? I'm sure they all look like good PR to a any number of politicians. Just how far are we willing to go in order to save just one more life? A bunch of us think we've gone far enough. Craig Jungers Radical again in Royal City *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
skimmer wrote: > Twice in the past two years fathers have gone fishing with a son > that has fallen overboard. In both cases, the fathers jumped in to > save their sons and in both cases father and son went to the > bottom. _Tell me that it is ok for fathers to take their sons to the > bottom with them because we must preserve our god given freedom > of choice no matter who pays the price!_ Chuck, I won't tell you that. I will tell you that life is full of risk, and that the greater evil is big brother watching over all of us and telling us what to do. Yes, some people (and their kids) will die because of bad choices by the adults. I mourn the kids, especially. However, __even if legislation is enacted to make it "mandatory" for everyone to wear PFDs,_ that will still not stop drownings like the one you describe. Reduce them some, yes. Where I differ with you is that I do not think the state (e.g., the government) has a responsibility to "make sure" every act of a father or mother is "safe." That is what adults are supposed to do. Some adults won't do that and some kids will die. I go along with a law demanding kids wear PFDs: they are not capable of making risk vs benefit decisions. Adults are. We should decide, in the main, not the state of PA or the state of OR. And, to protect some kids of irresponsible parents, I buy the argument we should require kids to wear them. Being the child of an irresponsible parent should not be a death sentence. [Never mind a PFD choice is small potatoes in an era of terrorists and crystal meth on many street corners!] -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck, I think part of your problem is that you say you ae writing for information, but you then write advocacy. I quote: "Hi Gary, I am just explaining why we are where we are. I am interested to see what folks think about the proposal. To this point, nothing has worked to get boaters to wear PFDs. I have provided the website and dates for folks to send public comment to PA Fish and Boat. Their comments will not ever be made public by PA Fand B, however. It will be shouting into a vaccuum. Thanks, Chuck Sutherland" But that is not what we are seeing on P-Wise, we see that you think there should be mandatory PFDs. That may not be the message you think you are sending, but it is, and I have spent too much of my life on the "spin" of policy papers to miss the message you are sending. Do those of us opposed to mandatory PFDs *want* to see people die? No. But do we believe it is possible to legislate against stupidity or arrogance? No. Unfortunately, the latter characteristic tends to be so strong among bureaucrats that they try over and oper again to legislate against the former in too many cases. GaryJ paddler writer instructor coach economist consultant parent husband etc etc skimmer wrote: > I understand that talking about pfds is a "shoot the messenger" > topic. I do appreciate all your thoughtful diatribes anyway. > > In my own defense, my second sentence reported that the PA > public comment period for PA Fish and Boat rule making runs until > Nov 14, 2006. No doubt you didn't read that far before firing off your > responses to the proposed legislation. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tuesday 17 October 2006 03:22, Chuck wrote: (snip) > But about Kids! Two states still do not require children to wear pfds. > Twice in the past two years fathers have gone fishing with a son > that has fallen overboard. In both cases, the fathers jumped in to > save their sons and in both cases father and son went to the > bottom. Tell me that it is ok for fathers to take their sons to the > bottom with them because we must preserve our god given freedom > of choice no matter who pays the price! Better arguement for PFDs is hard to find: Your loved ones have a bigger chance to retrieve your body, if you should die while paddling! And in the situation above, unless the water was extremely cold and the dads were drunk, the chances for a happy ending increases drastically if you're properly equipped! I've spent quite some time reading articles written by paddlers that end up in lifethreatening situations, on the web, plus Matt's book, and again and again the situation gets much worse due to the lack of a PFD - some do discard them when they know they are very good swimmers, but when you've been in the water a long time your brain doesn't work very well, so you can easily make the wrong descision. So if your law is always use a PFD, it is less likely that you'll take it off, when you shouldn't! Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tuesday 17 October 2006 14:27, Dave Kruger wrote: > I go along with a law > demanding kids wear PFDs: > they are not capable of > making risk vs benefit > decisions. The question is, when are we grown enough to do the optimum descisions? In every moment? We have a tendency of becoming lazy about dangers with things we are used to, no matter if it is playing with dogs, handling weapons, model airplanes, paddling or whatever. So most of us develope simple safety rules, that we try to adhere to, as not to end up in trouble. And most of us learn by our mistakes: The only time I've been in trouble while paddling at sea, we were returning to paddling after a long break, and just one wave rolled us, and deposited us in +3 degree water, a fair way from closest rock. Simple details like that fact that we hadn't any ballast on board (a Klepper needs that, if empty), and we sat very high off the bottom, due to inexperience (We had never paddled an empty Klepper Ae II in waves before). But we had PFDs which saved our lives. After we this we got a good electric bilge pump as emptying a waterfilled Klepper with an ordinary handpump took an awful long time. We tried to lift it with just some water left in it, which with help from bystanders, we eventually managed to do, but not without structural damage. Some think cellular phones, pfds, bilge pumps, maps, weather forecasts, GPS, repair kits and spare paddles just stupid add-ons, and that they'll live for ever. I did too, before I had a few close calls, and a few friends died in young age. Nobody is safe from bad judgement at times, but it is sure better to carry the safety equipment with you than leaving it at home! Eventually in life we come to an age where nobody depend on us any more, and at that age I see no need for extensive safety gear, but you should still wear a pfd to help retrieving you, should things go wrong. An inflatable PFD takes very little room, isn't warm, and can be equipped for automatic deployment - a simple line connected to the kayak will usually do! Tord PS I hope my English isn't too badly spelt - it isn't my language, just something I've learned in school! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Tord posted: "PS I hope my English isn't too badly spelt - it isn't my language, just something I've learned in school!" Your English is excellent. Where is .nu? Your view of PFD requirements appeals to me, too. "An inflatable PFD takes very little room, isn't warm, and can be equipped for automatic deployment - a simple line connected to the kayak will usually do!" I wear an inflatable vest PFD. When this wears out, probably due to UV damage to the outer cloth, I'll be getting a yoke style inflatable PFD. Have you tested this tether system? I am a bit wary of tethering the PFD inflation mechanism to the boat. How long is the tether? Where is it attached to the boat? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wednesday 18 October 2006 12:53, Mr Broze wrote: > because my nipples are still hypersensitive to > friction ever since I raced with a (required) PFD > with no undershirt under it about 20 years ago. You should wear a bra, Matt! Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This "debate" is not about commercial fishermen, or recreational fishermen, or sailors or any other type of boating besides sea kayaking. I don't think you will find anyone who will argue that pfd's have their place in the boating world. The question here is, or at least should be, just what is their actual value in the sport of sea kayaking? I love Mr. Winter's story about how he was swimming along side the paddler who felt they needed to be wearing their pfd. It's so true :-) And then the "debate" turns to pfd's on children. The implication here is clearly that those of us who do not always wear a pfd should be relegated to baby killers. Apparently several of you have been getting tips from that popular book, "How to Influence People and Win the Debate," by Tim Ingram. In California, children under the age of 18 are required to wear helmets while bicycling. I can look out my window right now and see young kids riding bikes without helmets on (no, they are not my kids). Down the street is a small skateboard park that has signs all over it requiring helmets and pads be worn at all times with the code to the corresponding city ordnance. Every time I go by there the park is teeming with kids, none of which have helmets on, and only a few will be wearing pads. So I say let's make pfd's the law - you know, for the kids - I'm sure that will work. What I really don't understand is those of you who are so fervently adamant that yours is the truer cause but still resist making it a law. If I truly believed that pfd's were the magic savior of sea kayakers which should be worn at all times, without exception, and I always wore mine at all times, without exception, then I don't think I would have any problem at all saying "bring it on, baby, and make it law!" I mean, what's the imposition to me? Nobody's going to stop me, since I always wear one anyway. I would be able to sleep better at night without having to worry about all those poor drowning children, and the debate would be over - I win! My argument has never been that pfd's are useless. I do, however, believe that their effectiveness in your typical sea kayaking scenario has been greatly exaggerated. The pfd is just one more piece of safety equipment available to us in our sport. I will often go paddling without a compass or gps. I don't always carry a chart, flares, signaling mirror, etc., I only wear a helmet for certain activities, and I do not believe that it is necessary for me to always wear a pfd! I have actually had people tell me that I cannot paddle with them if I do not wear my pfd because I would be risking their lives in the event they had to rescue me! Huh? Never mind that I am probably more skilled then any of them, and if anybody was to be rescued it would most likely be me saving them - and I don't care if they are wearing a pfd or not! In fact, of the literally hundreds of kayak rescues I have performed, both as an instructor and on personal trips, I can honestly say that I have never felt that I was "risking my life" with any of them. I think there are a lot of people in this sport who are into to drama :-) I have often heard it said that in order to prove a hypothesis one should try to disprove it. You will find an interesting little site on "Hypotheses and Thinking Errors Related to Them" here; http://home.earthlink.net/~bmgei/educate/docs/aperson/thinking/hypothes.htmmember I used to swear by pfd's as well, until I really started looking at the accident reports and the related statistics - with an open mind. It is not at all difficult to disprove the effectiveness of pfd's in sea kayaking - like I've said before, just look at all the dead bodies that were found with their pfd's on. Now let's disprove the notion that pfd's are not all they are cracked up to be - - - I can't. I'm still trying to - but I can't. There is no doubt that pfd's have saved lives. I will concede that I too wear mine I when I believe the conditions warrant it. But is it really necessary that the paddler be wearing one when John Winters is swimming along beside them for support? Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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