This weekend I stayed on the farm and did nothing; my wife and I are both fighting off a nasty cold that has raced through our family and finally caught up with Grandma and Grandpa. This forced downtime has allowed me time to catch up on reading some of those paddling articles in the magazines. You know, the stories you just don't have time for because you're busy packing to go paddling or skiing, etc. I usually don't get sick. This is one of the few advantages of getting older; my immune system has finally figured it out. This time the virus must've been a new critter because my immune system is busily making me miserable while it iterates through the calculations required to nip the next attack of this particular strain of virus in the bud. Meanwhile I'm in my robe and slippers for two-and-a-half days and catching up on my naps. There are other advantages to getting older (notice that I'm avoiding the simpler form, "old"). I no longer lay awake worrying about dying young, for instance. And the database of cute-young-things has grown to remarkable proportions. It's just amazing how many attractive over... uh... 35 gals including both my wife, Sue, and my favorite paddling partner, Pam there are in the world; why I never noticed this when I was 25 remains a mystery to me. Um... where was I? Oh, yeah. So this weekend I found myself thinking a lot about various situations encountered in paddling. Albert Einstein, who was a theoretical and not an experimental physicist, often said that he conducted "mind experiments" in which he tried to imagine how the universe would react to different scenarios. Now, I'm no Einstein, but I can do much the same thing but simpler with paddling. As an example, this morning I started thinking about the mechanics behind turning a kayak. We all know that we can edge our boats to make them turn faster but most of us only learned to edge away from a turn. Motorcyclists and skiers edge into a turn. Why do kayaks do it the other way around? The mechanics of edging a kayak to make it turn faster are simple: basically you convert the hull from an essentially flat surface with little rise from end to end into a curved surface with rocker. The more you edge the more rocker you get and the faster the boat will respond to the turning moment imparted by your paddle blade. Since both sides of the kayak are curved pretty much identically (you'd know it if they weren't) then theoretically you can turn just as easily to the left by edging to the left (banking) as you can by edging to the right. Why we don't generally turn by edging into rather than away from a turn is mostly due to two factors: 1) The bracing action of the paddle; and, (2) The effect of the water the bow is moving through. In the usual turn we edge away from the direction of the turn and use the paddle on the lowest side of the kayak to propel the boat through the turn and onto the new heading. The paddle in the water provides the brace to stabilize our edge and helps keep us from toppling over. Meanwhile the bottom of the boat, being raised, protects us from having the water (which is acting as a current as we turn the bow through it) from moving onto the side of the boat and having that weight topple us over in the direction of the turn. But there are situations in which you might want to do exactly the opposite. For instance, when you are in one current and want to move into another current an accepted maneuver is to run along the eddy line (the boundary between two currents) and then turn the boat sharply through the eddy-line and into the other current by edging the boat into the turn and using your paddle in a pry (or ruddering) stroke to keep the turn going until you are entirely into the new current. Another situation is when you are on the face of a wave surfing down and want to turn back up the wave and off the face. You'd edge towards the direction of the turn (and into the wave-face) while using your paddle to rudder your stern around. This would probably be really interesting in a round-bottomed sea kayak and your "edge" might turn out to be more of a side-slip. Remember that the water particles are move in a circular pattern: up the back of a wave and down the face of a wave so that you would not just be fighting gravity as you move across that wave-face. Skiers talk about "carving" turns as they move down the face of the slope and so do white-water kayakers. But the face of a wave is more akin to trying to turn in a moving avalanche than it is to a static snow slope so it's much more difficult for a kayak to get a "bite" on that surface than it is for a ski to bite into the snow. This is why kayaks designed for playing in waves and holes (a white water term) have hard edges and flatter bottoms. Einstein was really onto something with his mind-experiments. There are all sorts of scenarios you can run through in your head. How to safely move your heavily-loaded kayak up a beach after landing; a better system of arranging the load in your boat; a new and safer deck-line arrangement; night paddling.... the list goes on. While those of us in the frozen north have to wait to put most of these ideas into practice the southerners can go right out and try them. That's ok... I hear the cross-country skiing is pretty slow down there. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig wrote: >Motorcyclists and skiers edge into a turn. >Why do kayaks do it the other way around? G'Day Craig, Those were some interesting reflections. Your motor bike reference was very pertinent. I'm learning to ride a motor bike to try and minimise my greenhouse gas and was astonished at how many actions on a bike are quite opposite to what I've been doing in a sea kayak. Wrists In a kayak while doing a sweep roll my wrists start off bent slightly forward to set up the paddle blade On a motor bike the accelerator wrist is bent slightly back to reduce the risk of accidentally turning the accelerator full on Posture In a kayak: leaning forward with back and shoulders straight On a motor bike: shoulders slumped forward for better control of direction Turning In a sea kayak (not a river kayak): look at the paddle blade in the water as I turn my torso and take the blade around in a sweep. On a motor bike: look in the direction I intend to turn Expect there will be more comparisons while trying not to get confused learning to ride this motor bike. Did find it was a really bad idea to try and roll the bike or for that matter surf it:~) All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<snip> > > Expect there will be more comparisons while trying not to get confused > learning to ride this motor bike. Did find it was a really bad idea to try > and roll the bike or for that matter surf it:~) > > All the best, PeterO It's been my experience that salt water and motor-cycles do not mix. You could try to find some surf on fresh water: up here in Canada, the Great Lakes can put together some impressive waves, as I'm sure you know. But you'd have to get a left-hand drive motorcycle for driving on our roads. <LOL!!> -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > The mechanics of edging a kayak to make it turn faster are simple: basically > you convert the hull from an essentially flat surface with little rise from > end to end into a curved surface with rocker. The more you edge the more > rocker you get and the faster the boat will respond to the turning moment > imparted by your paddle blade. That's part of it; the other turn-inducing feature is that the hull is now asymmetric: the "down" edge is curved in the direction of the turn; the "up" edge is curved in the direction opposite the turn (really, it is a portion of the hull you have rolled upward a bit) but has much _less_ curvature. This difference, side-to-side, generates a turning force, also, which aids the paddle. You can see how much this amounts to by starting a turn, edged, and then coasting, with no more paddling. The boat should keep on turning, albeit not as tightly as when you were sweeping to help out. > But there are situations in which you might want to do exactly the opposite. > Another situation is when you are on the face of a wave surfing down and > want to turn back up the wave and off the face. You'd edge towards the > direction of the turn (and into the wave-face) while using your paddle to > rudder your stern around. This would probably be really interesting in a > round-bottomed sea kayak and your "edge" might turn out to be more of a > side-slip. Remember that the water particles are move in a circular pattern: > up the back of a wave and down the face of a wave so that you would not just > be fighting gravity as you move across that wave-face. Aren't the water particles moving _up_ on the _face_ of the wave and down on the backside? If they were moving down on the face of the wave, wouldn't the water level on the face be falling instead of rising? > Skiers talk about "carving" turns as they move down the face of the slope > and so do white-water kayakers. And edging on skis with heavy sidecut is an entirely different game than edging a kayak (WW or other wise) because sidecut generates a curved edge that interacts with the surface to generate turning forces _toward_ that side, not away from it. [I feel particularly unqualified to discuss the mechanics of sidecut on snow, inasmuch as I never learned to do parallel turns! Strictly a skidded turn guy, perhaps a consequence of my surfer heritage and upbringing!] -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
People talk about skidded turns and carving. Beautifully executed piloting of elegant craft. And then there is me... I seem to make skid marks and cow licks. Not pretty but it makes me feel young. Especially when I dont die in an endo. Not dying is good. At least for awhile. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> That's part of it; the other turn-inducing feature > is that the hull is now > asymmetric: the "down" edge is curved in the > direction of the turn; the > "up" edge is curved in the direction opposite the > turn (really, it is a > portion of the hull you have rolled upward a bit) > but has much _less_ > curvature. This difference, side-to-side, generates Shall we add another layer to the discussion by adding "reverse hard chine" to the discussion? Example: http://www.borealdesign.com/_en/kayak.php?id=5 Derek ____________________________________________________________________________________ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 1/22/07, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > Aren't the water particles moving _up_ on the _face_ of the wave and down > on the backside? If they were moving down on the face of the wave, > wouldn't the water level on the face be falling instead of rising? Here is a quick quote from http://www.mos.org/oceans/motion/wind.html: 'As a wave arrives it lifts water particles. These travel forward, then down and back so that each particle completes a circle. " Of course, there could be some confusion as to what constitutes the "face" of a wave and what is the "back". For me, the face is the frontside of a moving wave and the water particles are moving down that face. Even though the water rises, the particles in the water on the face of that wave are falling. Counter-intuitive, I know. An excellent animation of various wave motions can be found at: http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/waves/wavemotion.html The animation of water waves (3rd animation down) clearly shows how the particles of water behave in a wave. > And edging on skis with heavy sidecut is an entirely different game than > edging a kayak (WW or other wise) because sidecut generates a curved edge > that interacts with the surface to generate turning forces _toward_ that > side, not away from it. [I feel particularly unqualified to discuss the > mechanics of sidecut on snow, inasmuch as I never learned to do parallel > turns! Strictly a skidded turn guy, perhaps a consequence of my surfer > heritage and upbringing!] My downhill skiing days left with the ligaments in my left knee somewhat before the onset of "heavy sidecut". I believe that Head pioneered sidecut with their metal skiis back in the late 60s so that turns could be "carved" back then but it took a lot more effort (or technique). The "carving" is caused by shifting weight forward to flex the tips up and turning the ski (if viewed side-on) into a slight u-shape. We can't change the shape of a kayak hull by moving weight back and forth in the cockpit but we can come close to carving if the hullshape has an relatively sharp edge. Or perhaps we just confuse it with a "bite". My poor Nimbus is almost certainly doomed to forever sideslip down the faces of any waves I want to carve turns on. But you can come very close with a playboat and even closer with a surfboard; however whether these include more "skidding" than "carving" is probably a point of debate. I just love these winter discussions. :) Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well, this topic has generated more uncertainty than I had expected. Bob Myers and I have a discussion going on, back channel, in which each of us is hedging on which of the diagrams we each submitted might be "correct." I'll confess I'm at sea, so to speak. However, I'm pretty certain of this: Craig, watch that animation in your second link closely and you will see that the _motion_ of the blue dots does not correspond to what the _language_ in the first link says, if "As a wave arrives" is taken to mean "beginning with the trough," and "forward" is taken to mean "in the same direction as the wave is traveling." In fact, the animation in the second link shows the water moving _back_, UP the face (like you said originally), until the crest arrives; then the water moves _forward_ and down. (I took out the ":" so the link will come up without editing) Craig wrote: > Here is a quick quote from http://www.mos.org/oceans/motion/wind.html > > 'As a wave arrives it lifts water particles. These travel forward, > then down and back so that each particle completes a circle. " > > Of course, there could be some confusion as to what constitutes the > "face" of a wave and what is the "back". For me, the face is the > frontside of a moving wave and the water particles are moving down > that face. Even though the water rises, the particles in the water on > the face of that wave are falling. > Counter-intuitive, I know. And, at odds with the animation in the second site [below], I believe. > An excellent animation of various wave motions can be found at: > http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/waves/wavemotion.html > The animation of water waves (3rd animation down) clearly shows how > the particles of water behave in a wave. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ya... you're right. The animation doesn't fit the description. So, isn't *that* interesting. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA On 1/22/07, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > > Well, this topic has generated more uncertainty than I had expected. Bob > Myers and I have a discussion going on, back channel, in which each of us > is hedging on which of the diagrams we each submitted might be "correct." > I'll confess I'm at sea, so to speak. > > However, I'm pretty certain of this: Craig, watch that animation in your > second link closely and you will see that the _motion_ of the blue dots > does not correspond to what the _language_ in the first link says, if "As > a > wave arrives" is taken to mean "beginning with the trough," and "forward" > is taken to mean "in the same direction as the wave is traveling." > > In fact, the animation in the second link shows the water moving _back_, > UP > the face (like you said originally), until the crest arrives; then the > water moves _forward_ and down. (I took out the ":" so the link will come > up without editing) > > Craig wrote: > > > Here is a quick quote from http://www.mos.org/oceans/motion/wind.html > > > > 'As a wave arrives it lifts water particles. These travel forward, > > then down and back so that each particle completes a circle. " > > > > Of course, there could be some confusion as to what constitutes the > > "face" of a wave and what is the "back". For me, the face is the > > frontside of a moving wave and the water particles are moving down > > that face. Even though the water rises, the particles in the water on > > the face of that wave are falling. > > > Counter-intuitive, I know. > > And, at odds with the animation in the second site [below], I believe. > > > An excellent animation of various wave motions can be found at: > > http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/waves/wavemotion.html > > The animation of water waves (3rd animation down) clearly shows how > > the particles of water behave in a wave. > > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've given some thought to the "particles in motion within a wave" issue and have come to the conclusion that Dave is (mostly) right. In addition, the two url's I gave do agree with each other but you have to think about it carefully. First, if you view the wave motion from left to right then the water particles do move in a clockwise circle; not just up and down. Now the quote: "As a wave arrives it lifts water particles. These travel forward, then down and back so that each particle completes a circle. " Now look at the animation here: (The third animation, "water waves" is pertinent) http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/waves/wavemotion.html The trick here is to focus on the blue particles and, at the same time, focus on the wave motion. It's apparent that the quote is correct but not very well written. The animation is clearly right, however. The confusion (for me ) is that I was imagining the particles staying within the wave. Instead the particles travel from the trough in front of the advancing wave, up the face to the crest, then forward within the wave and finally down the back of the wave to the trough again... where they'll repeat, rinse and dr... oh, wait. So the quote which says that the wave lifts the water particles is correct... they are lifted as the face of the wave travels forward. This would have to be along the face of the wave as the animation shows. When the particles are at the crest of the wave they are now within the wave and following the motion of the wave they move forward. If the wave slows and steepens at this point then the crest of the wave collapses because the particles within it carry their own momentum forward and move off the wave and become unsupported. But in a swell (or non breaking or cresting wave) the particle would be at the top of the wave moving forward (in the direction of motion of the wave). At this point the waves move forward and out from under the particle (in a non-breaking wave) and the particle descends along the back of the wave (the trailing edge) and into the trough completing the clockwise circle. This means, of course, that the animation and the textual description both describe the same things. And Dave, I submit, is mostly right. Water particles in the face of the wave are rising, not falling. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA On 1/22/07, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > > Well, this topic has generated more uncertainty than I had expected. Bob > Myers and I have a discussion going on, back channel, in which each of us > is hedging on which of the diagrams we each submitted might be "correct." > I'll confess I'm at sea, so to speak. > > However, I'm pretty certain of this: Craig, watch that animation in your > second link closely and you will see that the _motion_ of the blue dots > does not correspond to what the _language_ in the first link says, if "As > a > wave arrives" is taken to mean "beginning with the trough," and "forward" > is taken to mean "in the same direction as the wave is traveling." > > In fact, the animation in the second link shows the water moving _back_, > UP > the face (like you said originally), until the crest arrives; then the > water moves _forward_ and down. (I took out the ":" so the link will come > up without editing) > > Craig wrote: > > > Here is a quick quote from http://www.mos.org/oceans/motion/wind.html > > > > 'As a wave arrives it lifts water particles. These travel forward, > > then down and back so that each particle completes a circle. " > > > > Of course, there could be some confusion as to what constitutes the > > "face" of a wave and what is the "back". For me, the face is the > > frontside of a moving wave and the water particles are moving down > > that face. Even though the water rises, the particles in the water on > > the face of that wave are falling. > > > Counter-intuitive, I know. > > And, at odds with the animation in the second site [below], I believe. > > > An excellent animation of various wave motions can be found at: > > http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/waves/wavemotion.html > > The animation of water waves (3rd animation down) clearly shows how > > the particles of water behave in a wave. > > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Here's another way for you ocean paddlers, whitewater playboaters, and other surfers to think about it: If the water particles traveled downward in the face of a wave, you would find it very difficult to brace in that face. The upward motion gives a much firmer purchase. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > I believe that Head > pioneered sidecut with their metal skiis back in the late 60s so that > turns could be "carved" back then but it took a lot more effort (or > technique). I've seen old wood skis with side cut, so it goes well back before the '60s. > The "carving" is caused by shifting weight forward to flex > the tips up and turning the ski (if viewed side-on) into a slight > u-shape. You can reverse the camber of a ski without shifting weight forward. In fact, with cambered skis, you can do this without any sidecut but sidecut makes it easier. But you are right - once it's reversed in camber, it's gonna carve. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 1/22/07, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > Craig Jungers wrote: > Remember that the water particles are move in a circular pattern: > > up the back of a wave and down the face of a wave so that you would not just > > be fighting gravity as you move across that wave-face. > > Aren't the water particles moving _up_ on the _face_ of the wave and down > on the backside? If they were moving down on the face of the wave, > wouldn't the water level on the face be falling instead of rising? No... circular pattern, not just up and down. At the top of the wave, they move faster than the wave, forwards, and then down the face. Think about what happens when a wave breaks! The top of the wave is going too fast and can't complete the circle. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Myers wrote: > On 1/22/07, Dave Kruger wrote: >> Aren't the water particles moving _up_ on the _face_ of the wave and down >> on the backside? If they were moving down on the face of the wave, >> wouldn't the water level on the face be falling instead of rising? > No... circular pattern, not just up and down. At the top of the > wave, they move faster than the wave, forwards, and then down the > face. Think about what happens when a wave breaks! The top of the > wave is going too fast and can't complete the circle. Bob, I think Craig's reference was to the _face_ of the wave, not the breaking crest, which does indeed topple after the broken crest moves ahead of the rest of the wave. In swell, sure, circular motion, shifting to elliptical as the wave reaches shallower water. But the issue is whether there is an upward component or a downward component on the face of the wave. Don't have my Waves and Beaches at hand, but ... Check out this animation and you'll see that the water motion on the face of the wave is _upward_ and rearward just as the trough passes, shifting to _upward_ and forward as the crest approaches; it runs too fast to see -- you'll have to stop it in mid-stroke: http://tinyurl.com/5vawv -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Myers wrote: > See, for example, > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/waves/watwav2.html Ooops! You're right! Ignore that previous posting! Looking at faces of the waves in the figure labeled "Progression of the Wave," I see a downward component and a forward component, with the relative magnitudes changing as the face passes. The water particles within the water have a _different_ motion than the _surface_ does. I think I'm getting it, now. The surface rises _not_ because bulk water is moving up, but rather, the disturbance is moving from left to right. OK. Apologies to Craig for doubting him, and thanks to Bob for clearing this up. Mea culpa -- always glad to learn about a misconception. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:43 PDT