Chuck wrote: >I am not interested in the warm water debate! It is worth noting that >the dissenters always jump back to the warm water environment. In >the cold water environment, safe? The boater with or without the pfd >doesn't matter. The swimmer will soon be missing! Where could >John be? Good point so it is worth consideringt the cold water environment. I live in Nova Scotia and when the surf is up the area in front of our house is consdered a fine surf break. Then there are a bunch of surfers paddling their surf boards, standing up on their surf boards and swimming (They seem to fall off occasioanlly). They don't wear life jackets. Meanwhile we get a few kayakers in what look like whitewater boats to me also surfing. They wear lifejackets. So that brings me back to my question that Chuck did not answer. Maybe there is some other set of conditions worth investigating to get it answered. If Chuck isn't interested in answering my question maybe some one else can. Oh yes, keeping the life jacket on deck serves a useful purpose. You never can tell when you might run across someone who needs one more than yourself. Cheers John Winters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This example is not as simple as it seems. Board surfers use the ability to duck under waves to deal with the surf more safely. By their estimation the ability to dive underwater provides more safety than the ability to stay afloat. Boat surfers do not have this option. Since they are locked into a high buoyancy boat, they can not dive underwater with or without a pfd. When a boat surfer does become separated from their boat, it is often after being harshly worked by the waves. Because they are locked into the boat, boat surfers are more likely to get heavily trashed by the waves than board surfers. After being worked over, they are much more likely to need the assistance of a PFD than a board surfer. In their estimation, the buoyancy of the PFD provides more safety than the ability to dive underwater after being forcibly removed from their boat. On Mar 23, 2007, at 11:45 AM, John Winters wrote: > Chuck wrote: > >> I am not interested in the warm water debate! It is worth noting that >> the dissenters always jump back to the warm water environment. In >> the cold water environment, safe? The boater with or without the pfd >> doesn't matter. The swimmer will soon be missing! Where could >> John be? > > Good point so it is worth consideringt the cold water environment. > I live in Nova Scotia and when the surf is up the area in front of > our house is consdered a fine surf break. Then there are a bunch of > surfers paddling their surf boards, standing up on their surf > boards and swimming (They seem to fall off occasioanlly). They > don't wear life jackets. Meanwhile we get a few kayakers in what > look like whitewater boats to me also surfing. They wear > lifejackets. So that brings me back to my question that Chuck did > not answer. Maybe there is some other set of conditions worth > investigating to get it answered. > > Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:45:33 -0300 John Winters <jdwinters_at_eastlink.ca> wrote: >Then there are a bunch of surfers paddling their surf boards, standing up on >their surf boards and swimming (They seem to fall off occasioanlly). They don't wear life jackets. Meanwhile we get a few >kayakers in what look like whitewater boats to me also surfing. They wear lifejackets. So that brings me back to my question that >Chuck did not answer. Maybe there is some other set of conditions worth investigating to get it answered. If you are surfing a kayak in shallows (such as toward the end of a surf), and you tip over, your head goes bunka-bunka-bunka on the bottom until you either roll up or wet-exit. If you are on a surfboard, you are not held upside down with your head whacking the bottom as you are in a kayak. Cheers, Richard Culpeper http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/index2.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- RICHARD CULPEPER <culpeper_at_tbaytel.net> wrote: > If you are surfing a kayak in shallows (such as > toward the end of a surf), and you tip over, your > head goes bunka-bunka-bunka on > the bottom until you either roll up or wet-exit. If > you are on a surfboard, you are not held upside down > with your head whacking > the bottom as you are in a kayak. That's true. In surfing your head rarely needs to go below water, which of course allows it to get solidly whacked with the board you just fell from. I'd rather drag my face along a sandy surface (a wonderful exfoliant, by the way) than have a surfboard fall out of the sky and conk me on the noggin'--specially if I wasn't wearing a PFD. Harvey *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Harvey Golden wrote: > That's true. In surfing your head rarely needs to go below water, which > of course allows it to get solidly whacked with the board you just fell > from. I'd rather drag my face along a sandy surface (a wonderful > exfoliant, by the way) than have a surfboard fall out of the sky and > conk me on the noggin'--specially if I wasn't wearing a PFD. I've had both of those experiences, and neither one is pleasant; still got the scars. A rocky bottom makes a helmet even more necessary. For the record: in larger surf, the type of PFD we wear (Type III) won't help much in case of a serious head whack, inasmuch as it does not hold an unconscious person's head out of the water. And, the style which does is so bulky and enormous, it is a liability for those who like to get down underneath the impact of breakers. In small surf, I wear my PFD. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 3/26/07, RICHARD CULPEPER <culpeper_at_tbaytel.net> wrote: > > > If you are surfing a kayak in shallows (such as toward the end of a surf), > and you tip over, your head goes bunka-bunka-bunka on the bottom until you > either roll up or wet-exit. If you are on a surfboard, you are not held > upside down with your head whacking the bottom as you are in a kayak. The situation can be even worse than you've stated here . A capsize in very shallow water is remarkably dangerous; especially in moving water. If you capsize with your head down-current your instinctive response is to put a hand out. If the bottom is within reach you are placed at great risk for trapping your hand in a rocky crevice. This is more than an inconvenience; it can be deadly! Even if the bottom is just sand you still risk a broken arm, wrist or fingers. It is extremely difficult to exit under these conditions because the current pushes the boat against you as you keep bumping downstream fending off the bottom with one hand (or the side of your head). You cannot get enough leverage to push yourself upright and don't have enough water to swim out. If you capsize with your head up-current the risk is less but still exists for broken bones in the hand that reaches towards the bottom. However the current will tend to pull the boat off you making an exit easier. Rolling under either of these conditions can be very difficult if not impossible. Ocean beaches present their own problems with shallow water but I'm not familiar enough with them to describe them adequately. In general I don't think that shallow water with any moving water is your friend if you are kayaking. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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