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From: <Pamvetdr_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] glass construction/ rivets
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 10:26:36 EDT
In a message dated 4/7/2007 3:57:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tord_at_tord.nu 
writes:

In the world of aircraft design gluing the skins to aircraft 
frames is today popular, but to prevent the joints from 
running, if the glue joint for some reason fails, 
sometimes, sparsely applied rivets are used. 


Maybe that could be applied to kayaks?

Tord

HI!
   I have an old (35 years or so) fiberglass kayak, which has the top deck 
attached to the hull by rivets and glued.  Some of the glue has failed.  I 
believe this boat was used extensively in Washington State, in Puget Sound in the 
1970's.  
   There is no identification as to maker but it does not look like a 
homemade boat. 14 feet long (4.25 meters) with white gel coat.  The seat was rusted 
out when it was given to me.
    Cockpit coaming is glassed in separately, some type of ridge for the foot 
braces is molded into the hull (protruding strip), and the handles each end 
are (chromed?) metal in a square shape.
   Kayak shape resembles Aleut design, very high cockpit.  56 pounds (25 kg) 
empty.  Anyone have any ideas who may have made it?
               Pam  in Washington State



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From: PeterO <rebyl_kayak_at_energysustained.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Leaky cockpit - spray deck - through hull bolts
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 07:35:42 +1000
G'day,

Can anyone comment on the practice of using through hull bolts to fit foot
pegs. Are they likely to cause leaks. I've noticed rust stains recently
around a coiple of six such bolts that have been installed for 3 years now.

Also I'm finding it very difficult to keep water out of the cockpit when the
boat is heavily loaded or when I'm hard edging in choppy water.

Is it possible to get leakproof spray decks. Are there any tricks to making
a neoprene spray deck leak proof.

All the best, PeterO
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From: Joshua Teitelbaum <teitelba_at_post.tau.ac.il>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Leaky cockpit - spray deck - through hull bolts
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 16:32:51 -0700
Peter:

Regarding leak-proof neoprene spray decks, my experience is that there is no
such animal, particularly -- but not only -- for someone who kayaks in waves
and who rolls.  These decks all let in some water.  I have use Snapdragon,
Seals, and a British brand that I forget its name (starts with a B, I
think). They all leaked a bit.

Cheers,

Josh

Peter wrote:
 
> Is it possible to get leakproof spray decks. Are there any tricks to
> making
> a neoprene spray deck leak proof.
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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Leaky cockpit - spray deck - through hull bolts
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 18:21:23 -0700
> Can anyone comment on the practice of using through hull bolts to fit foot
> pegs. Are they likely to cause leaks. I've noticed rust stains recently
> around a coiple of six such bolts that have been installed for 3 years
now.

This rust somehow migrates through the hole without causing leaks, IMHO. You
may use some marine sealant in those holes - 3M 4200, 3M 5200. The second
one is more "permanent" - difficult to clean it out and un-screw the bolt if
needed, after it's cured completely. Instruction says 48 hours until it's
tack-free (for both), and 7 days until completely cures - in relaity it's
about 10 days until completely cures. But it's TAD elastic (not like epoxy),
so loading it after 48 hrs won't necessarily destroy your work. Comes in
black or white, and the whole tube dries out in a month after you've opened
the tube, no matter if you were using it or not. Some irreversible chemical
chain reaction after it's been exposed to air.
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Leaky cockpit - spray deck - through hull bolts
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 19:35:55 -0700
PeterO wrote:

 > Can anyone comment on the practice of using through hull bolts to fit foot
 > pegs. Are they likely to cause leaks. I've noticed rust stains recently
 > around a couple of six such bolts that have been installed for 3 years
 > now.

No significant leaks in the three-four hardshells I've owned.  No rust, 
either.  If your bolts are stainless, they should not rust.  Might be time 
to take a look at the condition of the bolts and replace them if needed.

In lieu of marine sealants, I've been using small, close-fitting O-rings on 
my through-hull bolts.  No leaks.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Leaky cockpit - spray deck - through hull bolts
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 20:27:41 -0700
> Peter:
>
> Regarding leak-proof neoprene spray decks, my experience is that there is no
> such animal, particularly -- but not only -- for someone who kayaks in waves
> and who rolls.  These decks all let in some water.  I have use Snapdragon,
> Seals, and a British brand that I forget its name (starts with a B, I
> think). They all leaked a bit.

My British Bushsport spraydeck was the best I've ever used for leak-proof. I 
had mine especially ordered with the latex on the inside, which compressed 
nicely around the coaming. It had a tunnel with suspenders, all neoprene. It 
didn't work with my new drysuit tunnel, and also rubbed on my chest a bit 
too much, so I switched to a Snapdragon. The Bushsport still leaked a very 
small amount, just around the rear of the coaming. The latex on the inside 
made it difficult to remove quickly and the company said they will not make 
them for a new paddler.

Thru bolts? I have more bolts in my deck and hull than I care to admit. 
Rubber washers eliminate any leakage.

Doug Lloyd
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From: Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Leaky cockpit - spray deck - through hull bolts
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 17:51:16 -0700
Looks like a nice skirt:

http://www.chillcheater.com/products/shop.asp?cid=794&p=1&pid=21521

I wonder how well they work with the average coaming as far as being 
leak-proof.

Doug L

> On Monday 09 April 2007 21:47, PeterO wrote:
>> G'day,
>>
>> Can anyone comment on the practice of using through hull bolts to fit
>> foot pegs. Are they likely to cause leaks. I've noticed rust stains
>> recently around a coiple of six such bolts that have been installed for
>> 3 years now.
>
> I would use stainless bolts!
>
>> Also I'm finding it very difficult to keep water out of the cockpit when
>> the boat is heavily loaded or when I'm hard edging in choppy water.
>
> Sounds serious!
>
>> Is it possible to get leakproof spray decks. Are there any tricks to
>> making a neoprene spray deck leak proof.
>
> Ask for the help from Chillcheater :-)!
>
> They both make jackets with sprayskirts and make
> sprayskirts exactly to your measurements!
>
> See
>
> www.chillcheater.com
>
> Tord
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From: mike dziobak <mdziobak_at_mtu.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Leaky cockpit - spray deck - through hull bolts
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 21:28:41 -0400 (EDT)
> Looks like a nice skirt:
>
> http://www.chillcheater.com/products/shop.asp?cid=794&p=1&pid=21521
>
> I wonder how well they work with the average coaming as far as being
> leak-proof.
>
> Doug L

For me, the only system that makes a water proof seal is the rubber rand
type of spray skirt that nearly all WW paddlers seem to use. The skirt
mentioned above does not appear to be of that type. I always had a small
leak in my glass sea kayak around the caoming until I finally went with
the rubber rand type skirt.
-mike
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From: Gordin Warner <gwarner2_at_shaw.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Leaky cockpit - spray deck - through hull bolts
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 19:00:57 -0700
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Leaky cockpit - spray deck - through hull bolts



> Ask for the help from Chillcheater :-)!
>
> They both make jackets with sprayskirts and make
> sprayskirts exactly to your measurements!
>
> See
>
> www.chillcheater.com
>
> Tord
>
Can't second that recommendation.  I have a chillcheater.  It's my favorite 
spray deck.  It's light, drys fast, fits around my chest fine.  But on my 
NDK HV Explorer it's no better then any of the other 4 decks I own.  This is 
likely the fault of the deck coaming design.  There is a wide flare or 
flange where the coaming cuts in.  I believe water gets under the flange 
then finds it's way under the overlapping spray deck.  My tightest spray 
deck is a Brooks whitewater deck that has a sticky rubber substance all 
along the edge. It's a good deck, sometimes hard to put on when hands are 
cold and picks up grains of sand like flypaper - especially when the 
temperature goes up.  I've learned to live with the wet ride.  Soon I'll be 
elligible for British citizenship.

I have a great SnapDragon, reinforced rand, nylon waist and neoprene top 
band.  This is a great spray deck.  Unfortunately it fits a large person and 
an extra large cockpit for  a boat I no longer own.  Anyone on Vancouver 
Island or region who needs something like this can get ahold of me back 
channel.

Gordin Warner 
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From: Tord Eriksson <tord_at_tord.nu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Leaky cockpit - spray deck - through hull bolts
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 01:43:26 +0200
On Monday 09 April 2007 21:47, PeterO wrote:
> G'day,
>
> Can anyone comment on the practice of using through hull bolts to fit
> foot pegs. Are they likely to cause leaks. I've noticed rust stains
> recently around a coiple of six such bolts that have been installed for
> 3 years now.

I would use stainless bolts!

> Also I'm finding it very difficult to keep water out of the cockpit when
> the boat is heavily loaded or when I'm hard edging in choppy water.

Sounds serious!

> Is it possible to get leakproof spray decks. Are there any tricks to
> making a neoprene spray deck leak proof.

Ask for the help from Chillcheater :-)!

They both make jackets with sprayskirts and make
sprayskirts exactly to your measurements!

See

www.chillcheater.com

Tord
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From: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
subject: RE:[Paddlewise] Leaky cockpit - spray deck - through hull bolts
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 23:25:54 -0700
PeterO asked:
>>>>>Can anyone comment on the practice of using through hull bolts to fit
foot
pegs. Are they likely to cause leaks. I've noticed rust stains recently
around a coiple of six such bolts that have been installed for 3 years
now.<<<<<

They could leak is they have no gasket and the bolts weren't threaded
through the fiberglass (or the hole through the fiberglass has worn to a
bigger size maybe). Easy to check though just put some water inside the
kayak and let it sit against the foot pedals. Notice if any is dripping out.

If they are "stainless steel" you may be noticing crevice corrosion between
the SS bolt and a SS nut (if there is one). Also possible is mild rust
colored corrosion on the surface of the SS (because the alloy used for
fittings is not as stainless as some others in order to allow threads to be
machined into it). If that is the case don't worry as it is not like rust in
carbon steel that expands to bigger than the material corroded and therefore
flakes away causing a progressive problem that eventually destroy the bolt.
The rust color is more like a staining than corrosion. If the bolts (or any
nuts) are not stainless steel then the problem will probably progress and
get far uglier over time.

Matt Broze
www.marinerkayaks.com
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From: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] glass construction/ rivets
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 23:25:56 -0700
>>>>>>>>>>>HI!
   I have an old (35 years or so) fiberglass kayak, which has the top deck
attached to the hull by rivets and glued.  Some of the glue has failed.  I
believe this boat was used extensively in Washington State, in Puget Sound
in the
1970's.
   There is no identification as to maker but it does not look like a
homemade boat. 14 feet long (4.25 meters) with white gel coat.  The seat was
rusted
out when it was given to me.
    Cockpit coaming is glassed in separately, some type of ridge for the
foot
braces is molded into the hull (protruding strip), and the handles each end
are (chromed?) metal in a square shape.
   Kayak shape resembles Aleut design, very high cockpit.  56 pounds (25 kg)
empty.  Anyone have any ideas who may have made it?
               Pam  in Washington State<<<<<<<<<

If you send me a few small picture files (640x480 say) of it (Top, bottom,
side, close-up of the coaming) I could probably identify it for you. Maybe I
could ID it even if I got a much more detailed description, Chine or round
hull? Flange seam protruding out or not? A description of the shape and size
of the cockpit (inside measurements please and maybe the inside height from
the front of the cockpit to the hull) could be helpful Also the height above
the deck of the cockpit flange in inches. Any hatches? Width of kayak at its
widest place? Any metal or decorative trim at the seam line?

Matt Broze
www.marinerkayaks.com
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