On Friday 11 May 2007 10:10, Doug wrote: > Paddlewise paddling people: > > My wife would like me to add a rudder to her kayak. There is currently > no hardware for mounting one. I'm trying to decide between doing an end > poor and bolting on a rudder, such as this model: > http://secure.seawardkayaks.com/ecbuilder/item177.htm (et cetera) First, the flow over the back end is very turbulent, so whichever method, the drag is little to worry about, but the method above seems nice! Let persume her kayak is glass/polyester, or glass/epoxy! And that is very difficult to reach the extreme end from the inside - no hatch from which you can reach the extreme tail end. If you can, you might be able to feel how thick the glass/plastic is - my first kayak's skin was very thick there so I just cut the extreme rear end off! In either case, whichever type of rudder you eventually choose, I would, if the skin is thin, fill the rear end of the kayak with epoxy (hold the kayak vertically and just pour in)! Then, tape the rear end of the kayak with masking tape, before sawing off the extreme end, to avoid chipping the gelcoat. Take care to get the surface vertical and at right angles to the length of the boat. Looks prettier that way! Now hold the rudder bracket in place, and mark where one of the holes should be and drill the hole (just slightly smaller than the screws you plan to use). Again, if the can reach the tail end comfortably, I would plan to use normal SS bolts and ditto NyLoc nuts; if not, I'd use selftapping screws, that I before screwing them in dipped in epoxy, before I screwed them in the ultimate time. As usual, I would drill one hole, attach the rudder bracket, to see that everything looks OK, mark the next, drill that, and so on, to ensure that it everything is perfectly (or as perfectly as can be), before the next hole, and so on! And I would use heftier bolts/screws in the two upper holes! just my 2c, Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Then, tape the rear end of the kayak with masking tape, before > sawing off the extreme end, to avoid chipping the gelcoat. > > Take care to get the surface vertical and at right angles to > the length of the boat. Looks prettier that way! Steve Isaac at Watertribe has done this kind of modification, cutting the narrow tip off before installing Seaward rudder: http://www.watertribe.org/Magazine/2003_1January/IsaacGottaHaveARudder.asp > And I would use heftier bolts/screws in the two upper holes! I'm confused. Seaward bracket needs only 2 holes, so one would be the lower hole, and another one, respectively, "upper". *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I assume most "end pour" situations from a retro-fit perspective are to mount a bracket such as the Seaward unit depicted on the Watertribe site - two bolts or tapping screws mount the bracket into the cut off end of the kayak. I think this was similar to my VCP rudder modification on my Nordkapp. http://victoriakayaker.blogspot.com/2007/05/death-by-thousand-scratches-doug-lloyd.html The pin type of rudder mount, like the Feathercraft rudder (Seaward does a pin-style too, as does Necky, Current Designs, etc.) needs a factory end-pour and/or rudder-specific area to place the pin rudder and the retaining washer on a horizontal plane. This last point being why I thought about the welded bracket that mounts on to the end of many strip kayaks to give them a outboard rudder mount for a pin-style rudder, independent of the need for modifications. I did pick up a nicer piece of hardware similar to the strip-kayak style mount, but nicer looking. I got mine from Ronstan: http://www.des-boots-service.de/images/71.332.501.jpg I'll modify it for kayak rudder use. I think it is for a tiller or some such thing. It's anodized aluminum, and not cheap. I may still need a bit of an end pour to toughen up the rear end of the kayak. The neat thing about an outboard rudder mount is I don't need to cut the end of the kayak off. I had a close look at rudders at the Ladysmith Paddlefest today. The Kajak rudder looked like the best concept for a rudder, as it pulls straight back onto the rear deck without the need to flip it over-stern. It seemed a bit flimsy and didn't pull down all the way into the water straight vertically (not good if your going over kelp a lot). P&H had a neat concept in rudders too, with a rudder that dropped down when deployed, dropping down much lower than overstern rudders. It was expensive and didn't look well engineered, though it did make an ordinary length rudder into a deeper draft one. It also doesn't flip overstern, so would be left sticking straight up when not deployed. The SmartTrack rudder looked good to, but wasn't deep draft and also stuck straight up vertically when not deployed. The Feathercraft rudder looked like the technically most superb rudder, with a foil blade and fantastic CNC machining/smooth deployment. But for overall ruggedness and mounting durability, I really liked the Seaward rudders. The newer Cosma kayak from Seaward had the neatest rudder deployment system I have ever seen, with an uphaul/downhaul line running beside the cockpit coming in a molded channel. If worked flawlessly compared to the Delta system which was similar in concept but stiff to use. The Seaward unit included an additional small pulley for the uphaul line (I think) on the rudder than smoothed things out. http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302700757&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442507567 Neat for rudder users, as one won't have to turn backwards to haul up the rudder when heading into shore. I may even add this system and a Seaward rudder to my Nordkapp build.I've busted two or so VCP plastic rudders over the years, and don't like them when sand gets in the mechanism. I will probably do a rudder, as well as a skeg, as does the Poin65 kayaks - best of both worlds, with some redundancy in case of failure of one or the other. And, I did look at a none-ruddered kayak, BTW. Nigel's Silhouette by Seaward was exceptionally well made and looked perfect for a low-volume rough water machine. I fit into it with my new, post surgery weight, and was pleased with the controlled fit. I'll have to try it with my gear on later. My daughters tried out sit-on-tops and fell in love with them. Plastic, it is. Dubside was there with his black Feathercraft, wearing his custom black Kokatat drysuit. I asked him if he was modeling Freya Hoffmeister. And no, he didn't have a rudder. :-) Doug Lloyd >> Then, tape the rear end of the kayak with masking tape, before >> sawing off the extreme end, to avoid chipping the gelcoat. >> >> Take care to get the surface vertical and at right angles to >> the length of the boat. Looks prettier that way! > > Steve Isaac at Watertribe has done this kind of modification, cutting the > narrow tip off before installing Seaward rudder: > http://www.watertribe.org/Magazine/2003_1January/IsaacGottaHaveARudder.asp > >> And I would use heftier bolts/screws in the two upper holes! > > I'm confused. Seaward bracket needs only 2 holes, so one would be the > lower > hole, and another one, respectively, "upper". *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sunday 13 May 2007 07:13, Doug wrote: (snip) > The pin type of rudder mount, like the Feathercraft rudder (Seaward does > a pin-style too, as does Necky, Current Designs, etc.) needs a factory > end-pour and/or rudder-specific area to place the pin rudder and the > retaining washer on a horizontal plane. This last point being why I > thought about the welded bracket that mounts on to the end of many strip > kayaks to give them a outboard rudder mount for a pin-style rudder, > independent of the need for modifications. I did pick up a nicer piece > of hardware similar to the strip-kayak style mount, but nicer looking. I > got mine from Ronstan: > > http://www.des-boots-service.de/images/71.332.501.jpg Looks very durable! > > I'll modify it for kayak rudder use. I think it is for a tiller or some > such thing. It's anodized aluminum, and not cheap. I may still need a > bit of an end pour to toughen up the rear end of the kayak. The neat > thing about an outboard rudder mount is I don't need to cut the end of > the kayak off. Tapping the rear of the kayak would tell if it needs a pour or not. Dead sound means massive end, of course :-)! > I had a close look at rudders at the Ladysmith Paddlefest today. (snip) > But for overall ruggedness and mounting durability, I really liked the > Seaward rudders. The newer Cosma kayak from Seaward had the neatest > rudder deployment system I have ever seen, with an uphaul/downhaul line > running beside the cockpit coming in a molded channel. If worked > flawlessly compared to the Delta system which was similar in concept but > stiff to use. The Seaward unit included an additional small pulley for > the uphaul line (I think) on the rudder than smoothed things out. > > http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534 >374302700757&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442507567 > > Neat for rudder users, as one won't have to turn backwards to haul up > the rudder when heading into shore. I may even add this system and a > Seaward rudder to my Nordkapp build. Sounds like an excellent system, almost as good as the old one on Kleppers (the new looks very much like Feathercraft's). (snip) > Doug Lloyd I once saw an unusual arrangement, on a kayak in the UK, of twin skegs, mounted to a shaft running over the rear of the kayak itself, so one finlike skeg per side, like two miniature leeboards. Seems as foolproof system there can be, as if they get entangled in kelp, or something, they are within easy reach for a friend in another kayak. Totally remotely operated, of course! Picture here: Arrgh! Foldingkayaks . org is down !!! No picture just now! > > Steve Isaac at Watertribe has done this kind of modification, cutting > > the narrow tip off before installing Seaward rudder: > > http://www.watertribe.org/Magazine/2003_1January/IsaacGottaHaveARudder > >.asp > > Yeah, looks really good, doesn't it?! > >> And I would use heftier bolts/screws in the two upper holes! > > > > I'm confused. Seaward bracket needs only 2 holes, so one would be the > > lower > > hole, and another one, respectively, "upper". My mistake, sorry! Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi all, Missing link to photo of the twin skegs: http://foldingkayaks.org/gallery/Skye%2C-Scotland%2C-2004/Folkay55?full=1 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This is quite neat, with minimum 'damage' to the boat (no holes at all): http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/sailing_canoes/photos/view/60ca?b=1 Don't know how well it worked in practice ... Tord PS Our own, which you probably could copy: http://foldingkayaks.org/gallery/Rudder-modifications If you click on the pictures twice they turn into maximum size (thumb-normal-large)! The extra straps improved things a lot: http://foldingkayaks.org/gallery/Rudder-modifications/Rudder_with_reinforcements?full=1 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks for the input Tord (et all). I said: >> But for overall ruggedness and mounting durability, I really liked the >> Seaward rudders. The newer Cosma kayak from Seaward had the neatest >> rudder deployment system I have ever seen, with an uphaul/downhaul line >> running beside the cockpit coming in a molded channel. If worked >> flawlessly compared to the Delta system which was similar in concept but >> stiff to use. The Seaward unit included an additional small pulley for >> the uphaul line (I think) on the rudder than smoothed things out. >> >> http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534 >>374302700757&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442507567 It's hard to see in the MEC website picture, but the uphaul/downhaul line are routed through the kayak, under the rear deck - super sano. Her's a better view for you rudder junkies: http://www.seawardkayaks.com/paddlersiderdsdefault.aspx Gotta love those Seaward guys - rugged, gas-style rudder peddels, workable paddlefloat rescue straps, UHMW keel guards, some locking hatch covers, and new, well-executed Thermoformed kayaks.I take a lot of my design-cues from them. No affiliation. The Nigel Foster designed Silhouette from Seaward I sat in wasn't vacume bagged, but appeared soild, stiff, and well-finished. I take it their vetran crew must have a lot of skill to keep these hand-laid kayaks as light and straong as they are. Tord said: > I once saw an unusual arrangement, on a kayak in the UK, of twin skegs, > mounted to a shaft running over the rear of the kayak itself, so one > finlike skeg per side, like two miniature leeboards. Yes, I remember that picture link being posted here before on Paddlewise. Does have some merit, but cumbersome and not deep drfaft enough for me. And: >> > Steve Isaac at Watertribe has done this kind of modification, cutting >> > the narrow tip off before installing Seaward rudder: >> > http://www.watertribe.org/Magazine/2003_1January/IsaacGottaHaveARudder >> >.asp >> > > > Yeah, looks really good, doesn't it?! He's using the large tandem kayak rudder - to big for even me. I'll go for the skinny, extra-long blade from Seaward. I think the idea of a rudder and a skeg has merit on the same kayak. I only use the rudder in extreme conditions or when my shoulder tendinitis flares up accutely. I've never used a skeg, but the concept has a lot of merit obviously - being so popular. I'll probably build in the new Hydro Skeg from the UK: http://www.kari-tek.co.uk/html/skeg_systems.html I anticipate using the skeg the majority of time (when I need directional control), rather than the rudder. Unless I buy a different factory-appointed kayak, of course. I often hear of exceptional paddlers, eventually lamenting their lack of a rudder under certain, exhausting circumstances, even in kayaks desiged to behave neutral. I'm not willing to take that gamble, normally, especially as I'm prone to modifying my own kayaks. There were some strip build kayaks at the festival. I wasn't impressed. Perhaps I need to get to a wooden boat festival and see some better examples of workmanship. Doug Lloyd - no affiliation with above manufactures, etc. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well I'd seen the hydroskeg before and was impressed with the idea. Seems the way to go with a skeg. But what about that Skeg/Rudder combo? Sound like the best of both worlds, but I'd hate for that to get stuck on some long paddle. I hear a lot of people complain about the corporate nature of kayak builders these days, but it seems someone's coming up with inovative designs and improvements. I would think people would learn from the bike world that there's always money in a new mouse trap. Every time I watch the geyser of water shoot from my kayak, I can't believe there aren't more people out there making and selling a cheap electric bilge pump system. Mark Sanders www.sandmarks.net > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Doug Lloyd http://www.kari-tek.co.uk/html/skeg_systems.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm not sure about the SRS system either - that's why I was thinking a traditional rudder and the seperate HydroSkeg. I'll wait for more reviews of the SRS. Like you say, it could be a real problem if the fin malfunctioned in the rudder mode. Still, it's kind of neat to see these new developments - even if they are expensive. > Well I'd seen the hydroskeg before and was impressed with the idea. Seems > the way to go with a skeg. But what about that Skeg/Rudder combo? Sound > like > the best of both worlds, but I'd hate for that to get stuck on some long > paddle. I hear a lot of people complain about the corporate nature of > kayak > builders these days, but it seems someone's coming up with inovative > designs > and improvements. I would think people would learn from the bike world > that > there's always money in a new mouse trap. Every time I watch the geyser of > water shoot from my kayak, I can't believe there aren't more people out > there making and selling a cheap electric bilge pump system. > > Mark Sanders > www.sandmarks.net > >> http://www.kari-tek.co.uk/html/skeg_systems.html > Doug L *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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