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From: Bradford_Crain <crainb_at_pdx.edu>
subject: [Paddlewise] summer wear revisited
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 10:23:16 -0700
I've been avoiding buying a drysuit because I have heard
the neck and wrist gaskets have to be replaced frequently,
which seems like a terrible inconvenience. Are there drysuits
that actually hold up for extended periods?

Brad Crain
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] summer wear revisited
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 11:08:34 -0700
Bradford_Crain wrote:
> I've been avoiding buying a drysuit because I have heard
> the neck and wrist gaskets have to be replaced frequently,

Myth.  The seals on my drytops last longer than the Goretex.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: John H <seajohnkayak_at_yahoo.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] QQ: summer wear revisited - Gore-tex durability
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 12:20:44 -0700 (PDT)
Good afternoon Dave and others -
   
  Help me to understand how the the Gore-tex wears out. i uderstood the Gortex was laminated between other fabrics, interior and exterior. 
  Does the Gor-Tex fail to preform as advertised? Doesn't Gore-Tex have a warrenty on the products? 
  What type of seals are on your drytops? Tell me again the products you are using.
  Appreciate the clarification. 
  Thank you.
  john
  

Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote:
  Bradford_Crain wrote:
> I've been avoiding buying a drysuit because I have heard
> the neck and wrist gaskets have to be replaced frequently,

Myth. The seals on my drytops last longer than the Goretex.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR


       
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] QQ: summer wear revisited - Gore-tex durability
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 13:25:14 -0700
John H wrote:
> Good afternoon Dave and others -
> 
> Help me to understand how the the Gore-tex wears out. i uderstood the 
> Gortex was laminated between other fabrics, interior and exterior. Does
> the Gor-Tex fail to preform as advertised? Doesn't Gore-Tex have a 
> warrenty on the products? What type of seals are on your drytops? Tell
> me again the products you are using.

Long story short:

0. All were drytops from Kokatat, vintage 1993 - 1997.
1. Older versions of Goretex:  about 5 years of _heavy_ use.
2. Failed at the seam tape outer edge from flexure -- leaked there.
3. Ordinary latex seals -- treated with 303 protectorant regularly.  began 
to "dissolve" and get sticky at about 5 years.
4. The manufacturer (and I) both agreed I had gotten my money's worth on 
the garment(s), and they gave me a pro deal (or similar) on an upgrade to a 
newer, better garment, for the cost of the seals ... which are expected to 
wear out in about 5 years of heavy use.  YMMV.
5. I think I had a replacement somewhere in there, totally a freebie, from 
Kokatat, on one of the drytops.

None of this seemed out of line to me.  In fact, it seemed generous of 
Kokatat to stand behind their stuff, given the heavy use I made of it. 
Nothing lasts forever.  I think it cost me maybe US$30/year for a stable of 
three drytops (some mine, some my SO's, some were older ones I loaned to 
buddies.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: John H <seajohnkayak_at_yahoo.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] TY: QQ: summer wear revisited - Gore-tex durability
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:22:23 -0700 (PDT)
Dave, Than you very much for your clarification and detail. You provided what i was looking for. It sounds like, as you said, were fairly treated. That is important both for the company and the customer. 
  I've made my decision.
  Thanks again.
  Regards,
  john

Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote:
  John H wrote:
> Good afternoon Dave and others -
> 
> Help me to understand how the the Gore-tex wears out. i uderstood the 
> Gortex was laminated between other fabrics, interior and exterior. Does
> the Gor-Tex fail to preform as advertised? Doesn't Gore-Tex have a 
> warrenty on the products? What type of seals are on your drytops? Tell
> me again the products you are using.

Long story short:

0. All were drytops from Kokatat, vintage 1993 - 1997.
1. Older versions of Goretex: about 5 years of _heavy_ use.
2. Failed at the seam tape outer edge from flexure -- leaked there.
3. Ordinary latex seals -- treated with 303 protectorant regularly. began 
to "dissolve" and get sticky at about 5 years.
4. The manufacturer (and I) both agreed I had gotten my money's worth on 
the garment(s), and they gave me a pro deal (or similar) on an upgrade to a 
newer, better garment, for the cost of the seals ... which are expected to 
wear out in about 5 years of heavy use. YMMV.
5. I think I had a replacement somewhere in there, totally a freebie, from 
Kokatat, on one of the drytops.

None of this seemed out of line to me. In fact, it seemed generous of 
Kokatat to stand behind their stuff, given the heavy use I made of it. 
Nothing lasts forever. I think it cost me maybe US$30/year for a stable of 
three drytops (some mine, some my SO's, some were older ones I loaned to 
buddies.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR


       
---------------------------------
Got a little couch potato? 
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] QQ: summer wear revisited - Gore-tex durability
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 13:24:43 -0700
John H wrote:
> Good afternoon Dave and others -
> 
> Help me to understand how the the Gore-tex wears out. i uderstood the 
> Gortex was laminated between other fabrics, interior and exterior. Does
> the Gor-Tex fail to preform as advertised? Doesn't Gore-Tex have a 
> warrenty on the products? What type of seals are on your drytops? Tell
> me again the products you are using.

Long story short:

0. All were drytops from Kokatat, vintage 1993 - 1997.
1. Older versions of Goretex:  about 5 years of _heavy_ use.
2. Failed at the seam tape outer edge from flexure -- leaked there.
3. Ordinary latex seals -- treated with 303 protectorant regularly.  began 
to "dissolve" and get sticky at about 5 years.
4. The manufacturer (and I) both agreed I had gotten my money's worth on 
the garment(s), and they gave me a pro deal (or similar) on an upgrade to a 
newer, better garment, for the cost of the seals ... which are expected to 
wear out in about 5 years of heavy use.  YMMV.
5. I think I had a replacement somewhere in there, totally a freebie, from 
Kokatat, on one of the drytops.

None of this seemed out of line to me.  In fact, it seemed generous of 
Kokatat to stand behind their stuff, given the heavy use I made of it. 
Nothing lasts forever.  I think it cost me maybe US$30/year for a stable of 
three drytops (some mine, some my SO's, some were older ones I loaned to 
buddies.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: Marcia Tauber <marcia_at_simplymacintosh.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] summer wear revisited
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 21:38:44 -0700
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply
including old headers and footers.  It's list policy.... 
this post was modified to meet policy]

On May 23, 2007, at 11:08 AM, Dave Kruger wrote:

> Bradford_Crain wrote:
>> I've been avoiding buying a drysuit because I have heard
>> the neck and wrist gaskets have to be replaced frequently,
>
> Myth.  The seals on my drytops last longer than the Goretex.

I, on the other hand, am on my third neck gasket in two years. But I  
use it a lot and rarely maintain the gaskets with 303, etc. I  
wouldn't trade it for anything else. The air/water temps where I live  
are 55/53 pretty much all year round, so I wear my drysuit all year  
round. I love my drysuit. And Kokatat is in my home town.

Marcia Tauber
Simply Macintosh
837 H St.
Arcata, CA 95521
(707) 825-7100
(707) 825-7200 Fax
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] summer wear revisited
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 00:49:18 -0700
Marcia Tauber wrote:
> I, on the other hand, am on my third neck gasket in two years. But I use 
> it a lot and rarely maintain the gaskets with 303, etc. 

Yeah, your use is different than mine.  All my comments were for wrist gaskets.

I bet part of the issue is the effects of body oils; more of that coming 
off a person's neck than her wrists.  Sunscreen is also hard on gaskets ... 
anything oily, usually.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: Bradford R. Crain <crainb_at_pdx.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] summer wear revisited
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 08:02:40 -0700
   Have "they" invented the indestructable permanent neck gasket yet?
(It's not the Gortex I'm worried about.)

Brad Crain

Quoting Marcia Tauber <marcia_at_simplymacintosh.com>:

> I, on the other hand, am on my third neck gasket in two years. But I
> use it a lot and rarely maintain the gaskets with 303, etc. I wouldn't
> trade it for anything else. The air/water temps where I live are 55/53
> pretty much all year round, so I wear my drysuit all year round. I love
> my drysuit. And Kokatat is in my home town.
>
> Marcia Tauber
> Simply Macintosh
> 837 H St.
> Arcata, CA 95521
> (707) 825-7100
> (707) 825-7200 Fax
>
> On May 23, 2007, at 11:08 AM, Dave Kruger wrote:
>
>> Bradford_Crain wrote:
>>> I've been avoiding buying a drysuit because I have heard
>>> the neck and wrist gaskets have to be replaced frequently,
>>
>> Myth.  The seals on my drytops last longer than the Goretex.
>>
>> -- 
>> Dave Kruger
>> Astoria, OR
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From: John Kirk-Anderson <jka_at_netaccess.co.nz>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] summer wear revisited
Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 09:19:18 +1200
on 24/5/07 16:38, Marcia Tauber at marcia_at_simplymacintosh.com wrote:

> 
> 
> On May 23, 2007, at 11:08 AM, Dave Kruger wrote:
> 
>> Bradford_Crain wrote:
>>> I've been avoiding buying a drysuit because I have heard
>>> the neck and wrist gaskets have to be replaced frequently,
>> 
>> Myth.  The seals on my drytops last longer than the Goretex.
> 
> I, on the other hand, am on my third neck gasket in two years. But I


I had the neck and wrist seals on my Goretex drysuit replaced by Reed
Chillcheater material, and it has lasted well.

I had the job done after tearing a neck seal the first time I put it on
after a latex replacement, at the start of a one month paddling holiday in
the UK. Very frustrating.

Not something that Chillcheater advertise, but they were happy to do the
job, with the proviso that they experimented on part of the suit that was
seldom seen to ensure that their tape would stick.

No affiliation.

JKA
-- 
John Kirk-Anderson
Banks Peninsula
NEW ZEALAND
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From: <cholst_at_bitstream.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] summer wear revisited
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 12:09:19 -0500 (CDT)
I applied 303 protectant to the latex seals on my wife's and my Kokatat
drysuits last night, which reminded me that the suits are now 11 years old
(the dates of manufacture are written inside). In that time I have
replaced the neck gasket on mine twice, the wrist gaskets once, and the
latex booties never. My wife has replaced the neck and wrist gaskets on
hers once. I don't think that's too frequent. We tend to use our drysuits
only in the spring and early summer till Lake Superior gets above 55
degrees, and I always wear neoprene boots over the latex booties.

As for inconvenience, we are fortunate to have a shop in the Twin Cities
(Thrifty Outfitters) that replaces drysuit gaskets for what I consider to
be a modest charge, so I have never had to do it myself. As usual, YMMV.

A bigger problem is that the fabric under the armpits has worn from
chafing against our Palm PFDs. I noticed it before the chafing wore
through the Gore-tex and protected the chafed areas with self-adhesive
fabric patches. Though the patches look a bit strange and are peeling at
the edges, so far we have not had any leaks. With modern PFDs that have
larger armholes, I expect this would not be so great a problem.

Chuck Holst

> I've been avoiding buying a drysuit because I have heard
> the neck and wrist gaskets have to be replaced frequently,
> which seems like a terrible inconvenience. Are there drysuits
> that actually hold up for extended periods?
>
> Brad Crain
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From: mike dziobak <mdziobak_at_mtu.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] summer wear revisited
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 14:15:06 -0400 (EDT)
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply
including old headers and footers.  It's list policy.... 
this post was modified to meet policy]

> Brad Crain wrote:
> I've been avoiding buying a drysuit because I have heard
> the neck and wrist gaskets have to be replaced frequently,
> which seems like a terrible inconvenience. Are there drysuits
> that actually hold up for extended periods?

How good is your dry suit gasket kharma? Mine seems to be not so good.
Latex on my skim just doesn't last very long and I've tried meticulous
cleaning followed by judicious 303 appliction and I still break gaskets
usually in the middle of a long trip out in the middle of nowhere. And it
appears the latex degrades while stored even in double layer black garbage
bags. I notice the local paddle shop has some dry tops with neo neck
gaskets which I have not tried yet but would like to.
-mike


-- 
mike Dziobak
Dept of Civil and Environmental Engineering
Michigan Technological University
1400 Townsend Dr.
870 Dow Bldg.
Houghton, MI 49931
 Tel:906-487-3471
Fax:906-487-2943
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] summer wear revisited
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 14:22:37 -0700
mike dziobak wrote:

> How good is your dry suit gasket kharma? Mine seems to be not so good.
> Latex on my skin just doesn't last very long and I've tried meticulous
> cleaning followed by judicious 303 application and I still break gaskets
> usually in the middle of a long trip out in the middle of nowhere. And it
> appears the latex degrades while stored even in double layer black garbage
> bags. I notice the local paddle shop has some dry tops with neo neck
> gaskets which I have not tried yet but would like to.

I've heard of other cases like this: meticulous treatment of a gasket, with 
mysterious and apparently premature failure.

Couple things to consider:

1. How old was the gasket when installed?  If they sit around in stock 
somewhere, their shelf life is elapsing whether on a garment or on a shelf.

2. Do you have an ozonator in your forced air system?  Ozone kills latex 
fast.  MTU in the email suggests Montana?  Not likely you have an air 
quality problem there.  But, in high-smog areas, might be a cause.

3. Do you "bomb" the house for fleas/chiggers/etc?  A possible source of 
hydrocarbons in the propellant.  Hydrocarbons (aka gasoline, diesel, 
propane, LPG, etc.) are also death on latex.

4. Do you have oily skin?

5. Do you use sunscreen on your neck or face?  Leave it on your hands after 
application but before pulling the neck gasket over your head?

5. How about styling mousse in your hair?

Contaminants such as the last three can also degrade the latex.  Think over 
other possible sources.

My experience may be a "best case."  Not sure what is typical, but I would 
be unhappy if I had to replace seals every two years.  Five years, no problem.

And, a big __YMMV__!

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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