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From: Derek <glamourpets_at_yahoo.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Poncho as Storm Caige
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 08:18:40 -0700 (PDT)
Hello

I have been pondering the use of the following product
as a storm caige.  This guy is selling a full length
poncho made from tyvek.  I could shorten it to the
appropriate length.  The idea is that it would be kept
in the day hatch and used as an extra layer if
required.  It would be loose fitting, so you could
just pull it on overtop.  Thoughts?

The fabric used is "Tyvek. 1460uv"  Does anybody know
what happens to this fabric does when submurged in
water?

http://www.goodlingoutdoor.com/Poncho.html

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From: Carey Parks <cjp129_at_earthlink.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Poncho as Storm Caige
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 12:15:30 -0400
Hi Derek,

It's fine when submerged, you can wash it in the washing machine w/o soap a
few times to soften it and make it less noisy. But since his is dyed, it
looks like it might be softened some already.

BUT - I would be concerned about a drowning hazard when in the water. I have
a silnylon poncho that I like real well for hiking in the rain here in
Florida where the temp is warm and I need the veltilation. I took my poncho
with me in the day hatch as I paddled the canal in the back yard. A shower
passed so I smugly put the poncho on over my pfd and spray skirt and all.
Granted I didn't cut it down as I want to hike with it. But seeing how the
material floated in the water and it had a mind of it's own made me take it
off right away. I could easily see the poncho invert over my head, and since
it would be coming from all sides it could be a while before I found my way
out of the entanglement. And being water proof, it is also breath proof.

I would only use something that was form fitting that you know would stay
out of your face while swimming. To me that means either a real heavy
material that you'll be able to feel your way out of, and I don't really
like that idea either, or a form fitting paddling top that you can swim in.
Preferably the latter. I could see making a paddling jacket out of silnylon
and custom sizing it to fit over my PFD, with elastic on the bottom so it
would cinch up below the PFD and stay out of my face while swimming. Sleeves
long or short as you see fit.

So, if you were going to cut the Tyvek down, make sure it will stay out of
your face somehow. Any probably doesn't count. Since it has a zipper, if you
make it fit you snugly it might be OK. But do test it out in a pool or beach
in shallow water with a buddy standing in waist deep water to sort you out
if needed.

Cheers,

Carey

The fabric used is "Tyvek. 1460uv"  Does anybody know
what happens to this fabric does when submurged in
water?

http://www.goodlingoutdoor.com/Poncho.html
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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Poncho as Storm Caige
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 12:19:52 -0700
> I could easily see the poncho invert over my head, and since
> it would be coming from all sides it could be a while before I found my
way
> out of the entanglement. And being water proof, it is also breath proof.
>
> I would only use something that was form fitting that you know would stay
> out of your face while swimming. To me that means either a real heavy
> material that you'll be able to feel your way out of, and I don't really
> like that idea either, or a form fitting paddling top that you can swim
in.

Regular rain jacket - one of those $30-35 with sleeves, PVC-coated nylon)
with zipper and buttons fits this criteria too.  It won't invert over your
head, and if it has buttons, you can keep the lower part open, with flaps
around your waist.  Those flaps (usually with pockets) interfere with
paddling strokes, but not much.  Most of them have relaxed fit, and some you
might need to buy one size larger to make it fit over the PFD.
Non-breathable, but so is silnylon.  Consider it a low-cost alternative to
non-breathable paddle jacket.  Works well for occasional unpredictable rain
in low-intensity paddling or in moderate temps.
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From: James Farrelly <JFarrelly5_at_comcast.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Poncho as Storm Caige
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 15:44:51 -0400
> The fabric used is "Tyvek. 1460uv"  Does anybody know
> what happens to this fabric does when submurged in
> water?
>
I thought Frogg Toggs rain gear was made of Tyvek.
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From: Derek <glamourpets_at_yahoo.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Poncho as Storm Caige
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:48:01 -0700 (PDT)
I was looking at their web page, and they don't
specify the brand name of the fabric.  That said,
their description of the fabric does look mysteriously
like Tyvek.

http://www.froggtoggs.com/technology.htm

--- James Farrelly <JFarrelly5_at_comcast.net> wrote:

> >
> > The fabric used is "Tyvek. 1460uv"  Does anybody
> know
> > what happens to this fabric does when submurged in
> > water?
> >
> I thought Frogg Toggs rain gear was made of Tyvek.
> 


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From: Paul Montgomery <paul_at_paddleandoar.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Poncho as Storm Caige
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:29:25 -0700
Does anyone know if one side or the other should face out on Tyvek?  
Does it work the same either way? A 165' x 3' roll costs about $60  
(logo included) or less than 10 cents a square foot. I wonder about  
layering it under a breathable fabric as well. It probably doesn't  
work as good as Goretex, but it seems like a cheap way to make some  
gear.

Paul M
-------------------

On Jun 10, 2007, at 12:48 PM, Derek wrote:

> I was looking at their web page, and they don't
> specify the brand name of the fabric.  That said,
> their description of the fabric does look mysteriously
> like Tyvek.
>
> http://www.froggtoggs.com/technology.htm
>
> --- James Farrelly <JFarrelly5_at_comcast.net> wrote:

Paul Montgomery
paul_at_paddleandoar.com
http://paddleandoar.com
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From: Gary J. MacDonald <garyj_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Poncho as Storm Caige
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:15:45 -0400
Google this one well.
There have been lots of things mad eout of Tyvek.  Doesn't work well for 
all.
I only use it for ground sheets.  I suspect that it is not actually 
water*proof* if you use it as an overhead.
(You can also get the stuff in wide sheets--probably 12-16 feet wide.)
GaryJ

Paul Montgomery wrote:

>Does anyone know if one side or the other should face out on Tyvek?  
>Does it work the same either way? A 165' x 3' roll costs about $60  
>(logo included) or less than 10 cents a square foot. I wonder about  
>layering it under a breathable fabric as well. It probably doesn't  
>work as good as Goretex, but it seems like a cheap way to make some  
>gear.
>
>Paul M
>----------------
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From: Joseph Pylka <jpylka_at_earthlink.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Poncho as Storm Caige
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 02:24:31 -0400
> Does anyone know if one side or the other should face out on Tyvek?  
> Does it work the same either way? A 165' x 3' roll costs about $60  
> (logo included) or less than 10 cents a square foot. I wonder about  
> layering it under a breathable fabric as well. It probably doesn't  
> work as good as Goretex, but it seems like a cheap way to make some  
> gear.
> Paul M
> -------------------
	It's not a breathable material but rather a vapor barrier.  That is what
it is ordinarily sold as.  Once, long ago, it was used to make those
sleeves for 5 1/4 inch floppies.  I don't know why.
	NY-NJ Trails Council in this area prints their excellent maps on Tyvek. 
Waterproof and tearproof.  Lasts forever.  
Joe P.
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Poncho as Storm Cage
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 00:46:50 -0700
Joseph Pylka wrote:
>> Does anyone know if one side or the other should face out on Tyvek?
>> [snip] I wonder about layering it under a breathable fabric as well.
>> It probably doesn't work as good as Goretex, but it seems like a cheap
>> way to make some gear. Paul M

> It's not a breathable material but rather a vapor barrier.  That is what
> it is ordinarily sold as.

I've heard Tyvek described as a "vapor barrier" before, but I think that is 
very misleading language.  Check out Wikipedia's piece on it, in which you 
will find:  "Water vapor can pass through Tyvek, but not liquid water."  It 
is more properly a _liquid_ barrier, inasmuch as it passes water vapor, but 
not water liquid.  The Wiki citation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyvek

And, here's the language the manufacturer uses to describe its properties: 
  "This unique balance of properties, which cannot be found in any other 
material, makes Tyvek. lightweight yet strong; __vapor-permeable__, yet 
water-, chemical-,  puncture-, tear- and abrasion-resistant."  Source: 
http://www.tyvek.com/whatistyvek.htm

As far as its use for clothing:  it does not last; it does not withstand 
repeated flexing nearly as well as materials designed for clothing.  IIRC, 
its vapor transmission rate is much lower than Goretex.  Finally, it makes 
no difference which side faces the liquid water, AFAIK.  I believe you see 
it on houses with the logo out just because "that's the way we have always 
done it."

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_greatlakeskayaker.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Poncho as Storm Cage
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 11:16:41 -0400
Dave Kruger wrote:
> Joseph Pylka wrote:
>> It's not a breathable material but rather a vapor barrier.  That is what
>> it is ordinarily sold as.
> 
> I've heard Tyvek described as a "vapor barrier" before, but I think that 
> is very misleading language.

In northern climes, if you put a vapour barrier on the outside of the 
house, the structure would become a mouldy pile of rotten wood.  The 
vapour barrier (usually polyethylene) goes on the inside of the 
structural components and the house wrap (Tyvek or similar products) 
goes on the outside.  It has to be breathable - the objective is to keep 
the insulation and structure dry and provide a windproof and 
water-resistant barrier on the outside.

If Tyvek was a suitable product for outdoor gear to the extent some 
folks think, manufacturers would swarm to it.  The fact that so few do 
should tell you everything about how appropriate it is as a material.

Mike
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From: Gary J. MacDonald <garyj_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Poncho as Storm Cage
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 04:35:13 -0400
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply
including old headers and footers.  It's list policy.... 
this post was modified to meet policy]

Almost a decade ago I was working in housing market research, and I 
spoke to the Tyvek manufacturer.  I asked about using it for outdoor 
gear.  They said that while they had a large number of people (other 
firms) testing it for other applications, they had not found any where 
it was a useful improvement.  They said that some found it not all that 
useful as a ground sheet (I started using it around that time, and still 
do sometimes) or anything else.  I do not know why, but presumably they 
believed it should be waterproof.  The only non-building use these 
companies found and put into production was as windshield covers to keep 
snow and ice from building up on parked cars.  
GaryJ

Michael Daly wrote:

> Dave Kruger wrote:
>
>> Joseph Pylka wrote:
>>
>>> It's not a breathable material but rather a vapor barrier.  That is 
>>> what
>>> it is ordinarily sold as.
>>
>>
>> I've heard Tyvek described as a "vapor barrier" before, but I think 
>> that is very misleading language.
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From: Mark Arnold <mjamja_at_earthlink.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Poncho as Storm Caige
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:52:20 -0600
One of the more economically creative paddlers in our area used to paddle
in a Tyvek (at least I think he said Tyvek) suit made for painters.  They
were supposed to be disposable so were relatively cheap.  I am sure there
were durability issues, but he said he always was comfortable and dry.  I
never tried it.     

Mark J. Arnold 


> [Original Message]
> From: Gary J. MacDonald <garyj_at_rogers.com>
> To: Paul Montgomery <paul_at_paddleandoar.com>; Paddlewise
<Paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>
> Date: 6/11/2007 19:12:18
> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Poncho as Storm Caige
>
> Google this one well.
> There have been lots of things mad eout of Tyvek.  Doesn't work well for 
> all.
> I only use it for ground sheets.  I suspect that it is not actually 
> water*proof* if you use it as an overhead.
> (You can also get the stuff in wide sheets--probably 12-16 feet wide.)
> GaryJ
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From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Poncho as Storm Caige
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 12:06:03 -0400
On 6/9/07, Derek <glamourpets_at_yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> I have been pondering the use of the following product
> as a storm caige.
>

I have, in my youth, been known to do things that were.... well, let's just
say "inadvisable". Now that I'm mature (at least in years if not altogether
in attitude) I have learned a few things. My wife would say, "very few".
Never mind on that. But it never occurred to me to use a poncho (which I
often used for hiking) on a kayak.

The idea of paddling in crappy weather wearing a plastic poncho makes
whatever hair I have left on the back of my neck stand up. Being light
weight it would flap annoyingly in any kind of wind (this is being used in a
storm, right?). And, unless it has arm holes, the poncho would expand to
each side as one paddles. You know, arms up and out. Kinda like a sail. If
you're going downwind it might be great. But almost any other direction and
it would be a major hindrance. This position would also invite spray
(remember it's a storm) onto the bits of your body exposed while your arms
are up paddling and the loose-bottomed poncho opens invitingly to the
elements.

The storm cag that NRS is selling (
http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.asp?pfid=2267&deptid=947) isn't plastic,
isn't cheap ($189), and isn't a poncho but certainly looks effective and
safe in extreme weather.

Now, once you've decided to get ashore in that storm and you're huddled on
some isolated beach being pelted by wind-blown rain even a cheap plastic
poncho might be a good idea. Under these conditions the open nature of the
poncho means you can sit (hopefully somewhere dry) and tuck your entire body
in.

Craig Jungers
Royal City , WA
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