Hi Guys, I know from my years of digesting most of the good info that abounds on Paddlewise, that there are probably some good suggestions for a "do it yourself" guy, like most of you, about how to secure the loops in the rudder end of the cables. Maybe there are some special "tricks" that help in doing this job.......... hmm??? Several months ago there was quite a thread about throw ropes and tow ropes, including thoughts about most appropriate diameters and kinds of line available today. I recall some comments about a new synthetic line that was very strong even in a very small diameter. Can't remember its name, but believe it was (if you'll pardon the expression) a four letter word beginning with the letter "s". I believe there was some comment that this stuff could well be used for rudder cables. As Derek usually concludes......... "Any thoughts?" Ol' Dave *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>how to secure the loops in the rudder > end of the cables. Maybe there are some special "tricks" that help in doing > this job You haven't asked at Home Depot yet, I guess. Get a pack of 1/16" "cable crimps" for $2 or so, plus "crimping tool" for $12 or 15 - don't remember. That tool is also used for cutting bolts and stripping the insulation off electrical wires - it has many different holes and notches on the jaws. Crimps are aluminum, those your orginal are most likely copper, but I don't think this matters. Both will corrode with time. Some kayaking and marine stores might have them in copper. I couldn't open that original copper crimps with chisel or other tools known to me, or may be I didn't know the right tool, and simply cut the loops with copper crimps. > there was quite a thread about throw ropes and tow ropes, > including thoughts about most appropriate diameters and kinds of line > available today. I recall some comments about a new synthetic line that was > very strong even in a very small diameter. Tow ropes and throw ropes can be thick. They need to be strong, while tensile deformation in those applications is way less important that for rudder lines. I am not sure that even the best synthetic line of 1/16" diameter will still not stretch too much for a rudder line. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Why do tow ropes need to be especially strong? Personally, I'd rather have the tow rope as the weakest link rather than the cam cleat on my deck -- or my waist, if I were doing a waist tow. How many pounds of resistance is there when towing a kayak and paddler at 3-4 knots? It can't be enough to worry about the the strength of the typical tow line. Matt, you must have some figures on this. Chuck Holst > Tow ropes and throw ropes can be thick. They need to be strong, while > tensile deformation in those applications is way less important that for > rudder lines. I am not sure that even the best synthetic line of 1/16" > diameter will still not stretch too much for a rudder line. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
cholst_at_bitstream.net wrote: > Personally, I'd rather have > the tow rope as the weakest link rather than the cam cleat on my deck -- > or my waist, if I were doing a waist tow. Me too. There's nothing like a broken spine to ruin your day :-) > How many pounds of resistance is > there when towing a kayak and paddler at 3-4 knots? Not much. A selection of Sea Kayaker magazine test results shows maximum drag at four knots to be about 6.5 lb for the worst kayak they tested (drag figures are estimated from Kaper/Taylor, of course). However, a wave can increase this dynamically, as can impact of the towed kayak with a floating or stationary object. The actual peak force in those cases depends on the flex in the line (or bungie, if you put that in line with the rope). If you also want to use a tow rope as a rescue rope (lifting a paddler out of water, for example - think of WW rescue scenarios applied to sea kayaks) you will want considerable strength. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Bishop wrote: > how to secure the loops in the rudder end of the cables. If they are metal cable, go to the marine supply store and get some little copper sleeves to fit the cable. Run the cable through one side of the sleeve, form the loop, and run the end through the other side of the sleeve. Crunch it closed with vise grips, or use the tool at the marine store. Some folks like to pre-thread some shrink tubing, and then cover the bare end of the cable with it. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Bishop wrote: > believe it was (if you'll pardon the expression) a four letter word beginning > with the letter "s". I believe there was some comment that this stuff could > well be used for rudder cables. You may be thinking of Spectra (in Europe often known as Dyneema). However, that's not used for rudder cables. However, Kevlar cables are used in some kayaks - I think Boreal Designs is one company that's using it. I think you can get appropriate Kevlar line in a fishing store - in some form of braided line used for catching submarines or something. Just make sure it's stronger than what you can leg press. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>How many pounds of resistance is there when towing a kayak and paddler at 3-4 knots? It can't be enough to worry about the the strength of the typical tow line. Can be still more than the resistance created by partially deflected rudder blade at approximately same speeds. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck <cholst_at_bitstream.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>Why do tow ropes need to be especially strong? Personally, I'd rather have the tow rope as the weakest link rather than the cam cleat on my deck -- or my waist, if I were doing a waist tow. How many pounds of resistance is there when towing a kayak and paddler at 3-4 knots? It can't be enough to worry about the the strength of the typical tow line. Matt, you must have some figures on this.<<<<<<<<<< I agree with this to a point but too thin a tow rope tends to tangle too easily and it is more likely to cut hands and such. Too heavy a tow line (even if nylon) doesn't stretch enough on its own to absorb shocks during towing (for everyone's comfort and the abuse the cleat or ones waist takes). Some shock cord can be added to solve that problem with too heavy a line though. I've settled on 3/16" nylon solid braid as the best compromise, good stretch, not too abrasive a weave, and lots stronger than it needs to be (but the stretch helps keep the shocks to ones body or other equipment within reason, unless in the surf (in which case any tow line is very problematic). In the surf what worked best for me was to hold the line in my hand on the paddle and drop the line (with a float on it) whenever I'd be surfed away. Then I'd circle back and pick it up again until the next ride would make me drop it again. Just look at any Sea Kayaker magazines kayak tests to know how many pounds of drag a hull has at towing speeds. Most are in the 4 pound range at 4 knots and in the 2 pound range at a more reasonable 3 knot towing speed. Of course, starting shocks and shocks to the line due to waves will probably more than double that at times. Still 20 to 40 pound fishing line would probably be adequate if it didn't tangle so easily and increase the risk of cutting your hands (or being cut by a sharp rudder part). Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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