> In the wonderful rudder debate, the only true wisdom was expressed by Doug > Lloyd, to whom we should all be grateful. Here it is, and I quote: > > "I don't use my rudder when I don't > want to and I do use my rudder when I do want to. I use it sometimes when > I > don't need it and sometimes don't use it when I would, well, "benefit" > from > its use." There is no true rudder wisdom, though the maxim to not become a rudder dependant paddler is about as close to perfect advice as the paddling community should promote. Personally, I find paddling can become a bit monotonous at times. Chris Cunningham made an interesting observation recently about the difficulty enticing a younger demographic to the enjoyment of paddling, when that same demographic probably isn't too interested in an activity that requires hours of constant, slow moving activity - given the current generation of younger adults who's penchant for media action and fast-paced recreation may preclude the commitment necessary for sea kayaking.. I'm still young at heart. Always will be I figure. So, I like to mix it up. Rudder up, rudder down; rudder healed over, rudder stayed in an in-line (skeg-like) fashion (no breaking). Sometimes I like the foot placement of a butterfly rudder tiller, sometimes I like to haul the rudder up and position my feet and legs or even my toes someplace else. Sometimes I like a slow paddle cadence, sometimes a fast cadence with more rotation - and even rocking the boat from side to side with each consecutive stroke, heaven forbid. Sometimes I like a super-low open water stroke with not much glide, other times I'll let the seas push me along. Sometimes I'll barrel on up the faces of swell, even though it is less efficient to do so, just for the workout and grunt factor; other times I'll back off until on the swell's downslope and dig in hard like you are supposed to. I'll zig zag without the rudder to find the best track in a kooky sea state, or even maximize my direction to get bigger "air time" over each wave peak, mesmarized for hours in such useless jubilation. Sometimes I'll reposition my butt uncomfortably, lean hard over to edge, and paddle the now more acutely, apparent rocked hull avoiding rudder use for hours on endless hours, just to keep skills and an acute sense of balance well honed. Other times I get tired of this position, and haul the rudder down, making best use of a fast, evenly sided stroke - especially if outrunning dangerously changing condition during a long transit. Well you get the picture. Sameness is death. To be frank, I paddle a sea kayak because of the freedom it affords and I can and may do essentially what I want in terms of technique and conditions. In other words, to be blunt, everyone else with their opinions and pre-dilections can go to H-E-double L. Right? Why not? I respect their opinion, but don't foist it on me or constrain me to some accepted norm. I don't care about statistics, unsupported data or evidentiary proof. If I live in ignorance, so be it. If I'm way ahead of the curve, who cares. As long as I get out paddling with my "chosen system" and it works for me. My penchant is for solo-paddled rough water. I'll never be a Caffyn or a Duff though. I'm just me. My goals modest. And the boat I have is the boat I have for some very good reasons. So it can benefit from a rudder once and awhile. I'm fine with that. And I have no vested interest in campaigning a trendy merchandising and coaching plan that includes slogans like "I don't need no stinking rudder," as do some individuals. I love Matt and Cam. They are amongst the Seven Wonders of the kayak design world. Irreplaceable gems never to be duplicated. But I don't want to paddle a Mariner. And I would like to have someone give me a list of kayaks that have little or no inherent lee helm or weather helm, while capable of performing with aplomb in every other regard. Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Try sitting ON the rudder, that should qualify as an uncomfortable butt repositioning! MS -----Original Message----- From: Doug Lloyd Sometimes I'll reposition my butt uncomfortably... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I well imagine Mark. That is one thing that the VCP rudder isn't too bad for - not that I'd want to sit on it on purpose - but the thicker plastic foil shape was very forgivig. I have never had a metal blade, so guess I've been lucky with that downside of rudders. Or, were you trying to tell me to "sit on it" in general? :-) Doug > > Try sitting ON the rudder, that should qualify as an uncomfortable butt > repositioning! > > MS > > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug Lloyd > > > > Sometimes I'll reposition my butt uncomfortably... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think I may have stumble on something here! This new repositioning seems like it would alleviate many of Matt's rudder concerns. If you're sitting on you rudder, it no longer provides windage and you don't need to worry about it flopping side to side while backing up. In this position, delayed feedback becomes a blessing, not a curse and the last of your worries is spongy foot pegs. I admit that the size and shape of the rudder blade would become more critical, but as I've said, I have great faith in technology to overcome such problems -----Original Message----- From: Doug Lloyd Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom) I well imagine Mark. That is one thing that the VCP rudder isn't too bad for - not that I'd want to sit on it on purpose - but the thicker plastic foil shape was very forgivig. I have never had a metal blade, so guess I've been lucky with that downside of rudders. Or, were you trying to tell me to "sit on it" in general? :-) Doug > > Try sitting ON the rudder, that should qualify as an uncomfortable butt > repositioning! > > MS *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark, you don't know how many times a week you make my day! Doug Lloyd (bored at work) > I think I may have stumble on something here! This new > repositioning seems > like it would alleviate many of Matt's rudder concerns. > > If you're sitting on you rudder, it no longer provides windage > and you don't > need to worry about it flopping side to side while backing up. > In this > position, delayed feedback becomes a blessing, not a curse and > the last of > your worries is spongy foot pegs. > > I admit that the size and shape of the rudder blade would become more > critical, but as I've said, I have great faith in technology to > overcomesuch problems > > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug Lloyd > Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom) > > > I well imagine Mark. > > That is one thing that the VCP rudder isn't too bad for - not > that I'd want > to sit on it on purpose - but the thicker plastic foil shape was very > forgivig. I have never had a metal blade, so guess I've been > lucky with that > downside of rudders. Or, were you trying to tell me to "sit on > it" in > general? :-) > > Doug > > > > > Try sitting ON the rudder, that should qualify as an > uncomfortable butt > > repositioning! > > > > MS *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 7/5/07, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > > Mark, you don't know how many times a week you make my day! > > Doug Lloyd (bored at work) Yup. And ditto. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Victoria Times-Colonist paper reported a fatality off Telegraph Cove today, happened Tuesday during an afternoon high wind/flooding tide scenerio. Paddler was 49 years old fom Okanagan. One other paddler made it, having lost track of the first paddler. he called in the madya suspecting the first paddler might be in trouble. The deseased was wearing a PFD. Little else is known right now. All tours were cancelled that day, and the water taxis were staying off the water. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Personally, I find paddling can become a bit monotonous at times. Chris >Cunningham made an interesting observation recently about the difficulty >enticing a younger demographic to the enjoyment of paddling, when that same >demographic probably isn't too interested in an activity that requires >hours >of constant, slow moving activity - given the current generation of younger >adults who's penchant for media action and fast-paced recreation may >preclude the commitment necessary for sea kayaking.. But paddling is shrinking in whitewater too. There aren't many young folka getting into it. When I'm on the river, I'm quite frequently the youngest guy there, and there are often many,many more people who are a good ten-20 years older than me, than there are who are any number of years younger than me. And I'm 31. (Oh, and I do enjoy sea kayaking. ) There are some notable hotshots who are young, and certainly more young WW paddlers than young sea kayakers, but I'm not sure the argument you're making explains it *all*. Geoff *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Why paddle a seakayak when you can drive a jet ski, oh pardon me, a personal watercraft. Bradford R. Crain > >Personally, I find paddling can become a bit monotonous at times. Chris >>Cunningham made an interesting observation recently about the difficulty >>enticing a younger demographic to the enjoyment of paddling, when that >>same > >>demographic probably isn't too interested in an activity that requires >>hours >>of constant, slow moving activity - given the current generation of >>younger > >>adults who's penchant for media action and fast-paced recreation may >>preclude the commitment necessary for sea kayaking.. > > But paddling is shrinking in whitewater too. There aren't many young > folka > getting into it. When I'm on the river, I'm quite frequently the youngest > guy there, and there are often many,many more people who are a good ten-20 > years older than me, than there are who are any number of years younger > than > me. And I'm 31. (Oh, and I do enjoy sea kayaking. ) There are some > notable > hotshots who are young, and certainly more young WW paddlers than young > sea > kayakers, but I'm not sure the argument you're making explains it *all*. > > Geoff *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Oh come on Bradford, that's a low blow. I mean, like, _jet skis_? How pathetic is that? You go out on the water, jump waves while disturbing wildlife and running over kayakers, then go around in circles, jumping your own wake, then, do it all over again. Doesn't sound, overall compared to sea kayaking's many facets, to be a very interesting activity. Nah, a kayak is much more of a personal watercraft with greater potential for meaningful fun. Then again, a jet ski could make a viable mini water taxi for getting kayakers out to interesting places with their kayaks in tow, or even getting them out of trouble pronto when they get in too deep. I'll get one for my wife to follow me around in my kayak. Then she can use the jet ski lanyard to pull the wring in my nose even harder! Just kidding. Doug > Why paddle a seakayak when you can drive a jet ski, oh pardon me, > a personal watercraft. > > Bradford R. Crain > >> >Personally, I find paddling can become a bit monotonous at times. Chris >>>Cunningham made an interesting observation recently about the difficulty >>>enticing a younger demographic to the enjoyment of paddling, when that >>>same >> >>>demographic probably isn't too interested in an activity that requires >>>hours >>>of constant, slow moving activity - given the current generation of >>>younger >> >>>adults who's penchant for media action and fast-paced recreation may >>>preclude the commitment necessary for sea kayaking.. >> >> But paddling is shrinking in whitewater too. There aren't many young >> folka >> getting into it. When I'm on the river, I'm quite frequently the youngest >> guy there, and there are often many,many more people who are a good >> ten-20 >> years older than me, than there are who are any number of years younger >> than >> me. And I'm 31. (Oh, and I do enjoy sea kayaking. ) There are some >> notable >> hotshots who are young, and certainly more young WW paddlers than young >> sea >> kayakers, but I'm not sure the argument you're making explains it *all*. >> >> Geoff *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I keep reading the Home Depot / Loews ads to see if the combination lawn mower and jet ski has been invented yet. I plan to be the first in my neighborhood to have one. Wet grass and high water will never be a problem again. Bradford R. Crain Quoting Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca>: > Oh come on Bradford, that's a low blow. I mean, like, _jet skis_? How > pathetic is that? You go out on the water, jump waves while disturbing > wildlife and running over kayakers, then go around in circles, jumping > your own wake, then, do it all over again. Doesn't sound, overall > compared to sea kayaking's many facets, to be a very interesting > activity. Nah, a kayak is much more of a personal watercraft with > greater potential for meaningful fun. Then again, a jet ski could make > a viable mini water taxi for getting kayakers out to interesting places > with their kayaks in tow, or even getting them out of trouble pronto > when they get in too deep. I'll get one for my wife to follow me around > in my kayak. Then she can use the jet ski lanyard to pull the wring in > my nose even harder! Just kidding. > > Doug > >> Why paddle a seakayak when you can drive a jet ski, oh pardon me, >> a personal watercraft. >> >> Bradford R. Crain >> >>>> Personally, I find paddling can become a bit monotonous at times. Chris >>>> Cunningham made an interesting observation recently about the difficulty >>>> enticing a younger demographic to the enjoyment of paddling, when >>>> that same >>> >>>> demographic probably isn't too interested in an activity that requires >>>> hours >>>> of constant, slow moving activity - given the current generation >>>> of younger >>> >>>> adults who's penchant for media action and fast-paced recreation may >>>> preclude the commitment necessary for sea kayaking.. >>> >>> But paddling is shrinking in whitewater too. There aren't many young folka >>> getting into it. When I'm on the river, I'm quite frequently the youngest >>> guy there, and there are often many,many more people who are a good ten-20 >>> years older than me, than there are who are any number of years >>> younger than >>> me. And I'm 31. (Oh, and I do enjoy sea kayaking. ) There are some notable >>> hotshots who are young, and certainly more young WW paddlers than young sea >>> kayakers, but I'm not sure the argument you're making explains it *all*. >>> >>> Geoff *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] Perhaps a new sport could be invented, involving the placement of an outboard motor on the back end of a seakayak. Maybe some of the mechanically inclined engineering types could comment on the handling characteristics of a seakayak boosted by an 18 hp outboard motor. This sport might appeal to both young and old, and there would be no excuse for being late for supper. Bradford R. Crain > her in vt. we have a new sport, snowmobile racing on lake champlain. they > get the snowmobile set on water's edge, gun the engine like they are going > to pop a wheellie,take off and lean back so the front sleds come out of > the water and hope it doesn't stall out. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 2:11 PM -0700 7/5/07, Bradford_Crain wrote: > Perhaps a new sport could be invented, involving the placement of an outboard >motor on the back end of a seakayak... How about a jet ski engine/pump in a whitewater kayak? http://www.popsci.com/popsci/how20/6a25a78d87273110vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9ryf-Uam0g http://www.jetkayak.co.uk/splash.htm Obligatory rudder related content: ...and he doesn't use a rudder *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bradford_Crain wrote: > Perhaps a new sport could be invented, involving the placement of an > outboard motor on the back end of a seakayak. A friend with Parkinson's put an electric trolling motor on the nose of his yak, deployable from the cockpit, with battery in the rear compartment. I think this thing has about 30 lbs of thrust, enough to move him along at a good clip for a couple hours, at least. He uses it mainly to get home, after his muscles give out. Very inventive. I've hitched a ride once or twice. Will tow two kayaks, no problem. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Start Quote: Perhaps a new sport could be invented, involving the placement of an outboard motor on the back end of a seakayak. Maybe some of the mechanically inclined engineering types could comment on the handling characteristics of a seakayak boosted by an 18 hp outboard motor. This sport might appeal to both young and old, and there would be no excuse for being late for supper. End Quote: When I worked for Southwind in Irvine, there was a guy who came in and was working on SOT kayaks with Jetski motors. I saw at least two he built, but never got to try one on the water. I never could understand what functional niche this was filling, as I'd imagine it wasn't as much fun to paddle, and probably didn't work all that well as a Jet Ski either! Geoff *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The original jet ski was invented to mimic the fun of water skiing without having to beat the brush to find a friend to drive the boat (and it takes two nowadays). A stand-up jet ski actually does come close to that feeling. Didn't someone make a motorized surfboard? Craig Jungers Royal City, WA On 7/6/07, Geoff Jennings <Geoff_at_texaskilonewton.com> wrote: > > Start Quote: > Perhaps a new sport could be invented, involving the placement of an > outboard > motor on the back end of a seakayak. Maybe some of the mechanically > inclined > engineering types could comment on the handling characteristics of a > seakayak > boosted by an 18 hp outboard motor. This sport might appeal to both young > and > old, and there would be no excuse for being late for supper. > > End Quote: > > > When I worked for Southwind in Irvine, there was a guy who came in and was > working on SOT kayaks with Jetski motors. I saw at least two he built, > but > never got to try one on the water. I never could understand what > functional niche this was filling, as I'd imagine it wasn't as much fun to > paddle, and probably didn't work all that well as a Jet Ski either! > > Geoff *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] here in vt. we have a new sport, snowmobile racing on lake champlain. they get the snowmobile set on water's edge, gun the engine like they are going to pop a wheellie,take off and lean back so the front sleds come out of the water and hope it doesn't stall out. most stay close to shore in case they sink but some cross the lake in narrow spots (about 1 mile). i will see if i can post any photos. david miskell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bradford_Crain" <crainb_at_pdx.edu> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom) > Why paddle a seakayak when you can drive a jet ski, oh pardon me, > a personal watercraft. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Motorized surfboards are illegal in Canada. Anything small and motorized is going to be noisy. Not interested. DL The original jet ski was invented to mimic the fun of water skiing without having to beat the brush to find a friend to drive the boat (and it takes two nowadays). A stand-up jet ski actually does come close to that feeling. Didn't someone make a motorized surfboard? Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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