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From: Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca>
subject: [Paddlewise] Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 00:16:36 -0700
> In the wonderful rudder debate, the only true wisdom was expressed by Doug 
> Lloyd, to whom we should all be grateful.  Here it is, and I quote:
>
> "I don't use my rudder when I don't
> want to and I do use my rudder when I do want to. I use it sometimes when 
> I
> don't need it and sometimes don't use it when I would, well, "benefit" 
> from
> its use."

There is no true rudder wisdom, though the maxim to not become a rudder 
dependant paddler is about as close to perfect advice as the paddling 
community should promote.

Personally, I find paddling can become a bit monotonous at times. Chris 
Cunningham made an interesting observation recently about the difficulty 
enticing a younger demographic to the enjoyment of paddling, when that same 
demographic probably isn't too interested in an activity that requires hours 
of constant, slow moving activity - given the current generation of younger 
adults who's penchant for media action and fast-paced recreation may 
preclude the commitment necessary for sea kayaking..

I'm still young at heart. Always will be I figure. So, I like to mix it up. 
Rudder up, rudder down; rudder healed over, rudder stayed in an in-line 
(skeg-like) fashion (no breaking). Sometimes I like the foot placement of a 
butterfly rudder tiller, sometimes I like to haul the rudder up and position 
my feet and legs or even my toes someplace else. Sometimes I like a slow 
paddle cadence, sometimes a fast cadence with more rotation - and even 
rocking the boat from side to side with each consecutive stroke, heaven 
forbid. Sometimes I like a super-low open water stroke with not much glide, 
other times I'll let the seas push me along. Sometimes I'll barrel on up the 
faces of swell, even though it is less efficient to do so, just for the 
workout and grunt factor; other times I'll back off until on the swell's 
downslope and dig in hard like you are supposed to. I'll zig zag without the 
rudder to find the best track in a kooky sea state, or even maximize my 
direction to get bigger "air time" over each wave peak, mesmarized for hours 
in such useless jubilation. Sometimes I'll reposition my butt uncomfortably, 
lean hard over to edge, and paddle the now more acutely, apparent rocked 
hull avoiding rudder use for hours on endless hours, just to keep skills and 
an acute sense of balance well honed. Other times I get tired of this 
position, and haul the rudder down, making best use of a fast, evenly sided 
stroke - especially if outrunning dangerously changing condition during a 
long transit. Well you get the picture. Sameness is death.

To be frank, I paddle a sea kayak because of the freedom it affords and I 
can and may do essentially what I want in terms of technique and conditions. 
In other words, to be blunt, everyone else with their opinions and 
pre-dilections can go to H-E-double L. Right?  Why not? I respect their 
opinion, but don't foist it on me or constrain me to some accepted norm. I 
don't care about statistics, unsupported data or evidentiary proof. If I 
live in ignorance, so be it. If I'm way ahead of the curve, who cares. As 
long as I get out paddling with my "chosen system" and it works for me.

My penchant is for solo-paddled rough water. I'll never be a Caffyn or a 
Duff though. I'm just me. My goals modest. And the boat I have is the boat I 
have for some very good reasons. So it can benefit from a rudder once and 
awhile. I'm fine with that. And I have no vested interest in campaigning a 
trendy merchandising and coaching plan that includes slogans like "I don't 
need no stinking rudder," as do some individuals. I love Matt and Cam. They 
are amongst the Seven Wonders of the kayak design world. Irreplaceable gems 
never to be duplicated. But I don't want to paddle a Mariner. And I would 
like to have someone give me a list of kayaks that have little or no 
inherent lee helm or weather helm, while capable of performing with aplomb 
in every other regard.

Doug Lloyd
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From: Mark Sanders <sandmarks_at_ca.rr.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 01:13:20 -0700
Try sitting ON the rudder, that should qualify as an uncomfortable butt
repositioning!

MS

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Lloyd



Sometimes I'll reposition my butt uncomfortably...
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From: Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 06:52:01 -0700
I well imagine Mark.

That is one thing that the VCP rudder isn't too bad for - not that I'd want 
to sit on it on purpose - but the thicker plastic foil shape was very 
forgivig. I have never had a metal blade, so guess I've been lucky with that 
downside of rudders. Or, were you trying to tell me to "sit on it" in 
general? :-)

Doug

>
> Try sitting ON the rudder, that should qualify as an uncomfortable butt
> repositioning!
>
> MS
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Lloyd
>
>
>
> Sometimes I'll reposition my butt uncomfortably...
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From: Mark Sanders <sandmarks_at_ca.rr.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 08:48:35 -0700
I think I may have stumble on something here! This new repositioning seems
like it would alleviate many of Matt's rudder concerns.

If you're sitting on you rudder, it no longer provides windage and you don't
need to worry about it flopping side to side while backing up. In this
position, delayed feedback becomes a blessing, not a curse and the last of
your worries is spongy foot pegs.

I admit that the size and shape of the rudder blade would become more
critical, but as I've said, I have great faith in technology to overcome
such problems

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Lloyd
Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom)


I well imagine Mark.

That is one thing that the VCP rudder isn't too bad for - not that I'd want
to sit on it on purpose - but the thicker plastic foil shape was very
forgivig. I have never had a metal blade, so guess I've been lucky with that
downside of rudders. Or, were you trying to tell me to "sit on it" in
general? :-)

Doug

>
> Try sitting ON the rudder, that should qualify as an uncomfortable butt
> repositioning!
>
> MS
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From: Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] RE: Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:13:14 -0700
Mark, you don't know how many times a week you make my day!

Doug Lloyd (bored at work)



> I think I may have stumble on something here! This new 
> repositioning seems
> like it would alleviate many of Matt's rudder concerns.
> 
> If you're sitting on you rudder, it no longer provides windage 
> and you don't
> need to worry about it flopping side to side while backing up. 
> In this
> position, delayed feedback becomes a blessing, not a curse and 
> the last of
> your worries is spongy foot pegs.
> 
> I admit that the size and shape of the rudder blade would become more
> critical, but as I've said, I have great faith in technology to 
> overcomesuch problems
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Lloyd
> Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom)
> 
> 
> I well imagine Mark.
> 
> That is one thing that the VCP rudder isn't too bad for - not 
> that I'd want
> to sit on it on purpose - but the thicker plastic foil shape was very
> forgivig. I have never had a metal blade, so guess I've been 
> lucky with that
> downside of rudders. Or, were you trying to tell me to "sit on 
> it" in
> general? :-)
> 
> Doug
> 
> >
> > Try sitting ON the rudder, that should qualify as an 
> uncomfortable butt
> > repositioning!
> >
> > MS
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From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] RE: Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 13:40:55 -0400
On 7/5/07, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> Mark, you don't know how many times a week you make my day!
>
> Doug Lloyd (bored at work)


Yup. And ditto.

Craig Jungers
Royal City, WA
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From: Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca>
subject: [Paddlewise] Death off Telegraph Cove
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 14:47:45 -0700
Victoria Times-Colonist paper reported a fatality off Telegraph Cove today, happened Tuesday during an afternoon high wind/flooding tide scenerio. Paddler was 49 years old fom Okanagan. One other paddler made it, having lost track of the first paddler. he called in the madya suspecting the first paddler might be in trouble. The deseased was wearing a PFD. Little else is known right now. All tours were cancelled that day, and the water taxis were staying off the water. 
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From: Geoff Jennings <Geoff_at_texaskilonewton.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 08:26:32 -0700
>Personally, I find paddling can become a bit monotonous at times. Chris 
>Cunningham made an interesting observation recently about the difficulty 
>enticing a younger demographic to the enjoyment of paddling, when that same

>demographic probably isn't too interested in an activity that requires
>hours 
>of constant, slow moving activity - given the current generation of younger

>adults who's penchant for media action and fast-paced recreation may 
>preclude the commitment necessary for sea kayaking..

But paddling is shrinking in whitewater too.  There aren't many young folka
getting into it. When I'm on the river, I'm quite frequently the youngest
guy there, and there are often many,many more people who are a good ten-20
years older than me, than there are who are any number of years younger than
me. And I'm 31.  (Oh, and I do enjoy sea kayaking. ) There are some notable
hotshots who are young, and certainly more young WW paddlers than young sea
kayakers, but I'm not sure the argument you're making explains it *all*. 

Geoff 
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From: Bradford_Crain <crainb_at_pdx.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 09:10:32 -0700
Why paddle a seakayak when you can drive a jet ski, oh pardon me,
a personal watercraft.

Bradford R. Crain

> >Personally, I find paddling can become a bit monotonous at times. Chris
>>Cunningham made an interesting observation recently about the difficulty
>>enticing a younger demographic to the enjoyment of paddling, when that 
>>same
>
>>demographic probably isn't too interested in an activity that requires
>>hours
>>of constant, slow moving activity - given the current generation of 
>>younger
>
>>adults who's penchant for media action and fast-paced recreation may
>>preclude the commitment necessary for sea kayaking..
>
> But paddling is shrinking in whitewater too.  There aren't many young 
> folka
> getting into it. When I'm on the river, I'm quite frequently the youngest
> guy there, and there are often many,many more people who are a good ten-20
> years older than me, than there are who are any number of years younger 
> than
> me. And I'm 31.  (Oh, and I do enjoy sea kayaking. ) There are some 
> notable
> hotshots who are young, and certainly more young WW paddlers than young 
> sea
> kayakers, but I'm not sure the argument you're making explains it *all*.
>
> Geoff
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From: Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:34:34 -0700
Oh come on Bradford, that's a low blow. I mean, like, _jet skis_? How 
pathetic is that? You go out on the water, jump waves while disturbing 
wildlife and running over kayakers, then go around in circles, jumping your 
own wake, then, do it all over again. Doesn't sound, overall compared to sea 
kayaking's many facets, to be a very interesting activity. Nah, a kayak is 
much more of a personal watercraft with greater potential for meaningful 
fun. Then again, a jet ski could make a viable mini water taxi for getting 
kayakers out to interesting places with their kayaks in tow, or even getting 
them out of trouble pronto when they get in too deep. I'll get one for my 
wife to follow me around in my kayak. Then she can use the jet ski lanyard 
to pull the wring in my nose even harder! Just kidding.

Doug

> Why paddle a seakayak when you can drive a jet ski, oh pardon me,
> a personal watercraft.
>
> Bradford R. Crain
>
>> >Personally, I find paddling can become a bit monotonous at times. Chris
>>>Cunningham made an interesting observation recently about the difficulty
>>>enticing a younger demographic to the enjoyment of paddling, when that 
>>>same
>>
>>>demographic probably isn't too interested in an activity that requires
>>>hours
>>>of constant, slow moving activity - given the current generation of 
>>>younger
>>
>>>adults who's penchant for media action and fast-paced recreation may
>>>preclude the commitment necessary for sea kayaking..
>>
>> But paddling is shrinking in whitewater too.  There aren't many young 
>> folka
>> getting into it. When I'm on the river, I'm quite frequently the youngest
>> guy there, and there are often many,many more people who are a good 
>> ten-20
>> years older than me, than there are who are any number of years younger 
>> than
>> me. And I'm 31.  (Oh, and I do enjoy sea kayaking. ) There are some 
>> notable
>> hotshots who are young, and certainly more young WW paddlers than young 
>> sea
>> kayakers, but I'm not sure the argument you're making explains it *all*.
>>
>> Geoff
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From: Bradford R. Crain <crainb_at_pdx.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 08:35:39 -0700
   I keep reading the Home Depot / Loews ads to see if the combination
lawn mower and jet ski has been invented yet. I plan to be the first
in my neighborhood to have one. Wet grass and high water will never be
a problem again.

Bradford R. Crain

Quoting Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca>:

> Oh come on Bradford, that's a low blow. I mean, like, _jet skis_? How
> pathetic is that? You go out on the water, jump waves while disturbing
> wildlife and running over kayakers, then go around in circles, jumping
> your own wake, then, do it all over again. Doesn't sound, overall
> compared to sea kayaking's many facets, to be a very interesting
> activity. Nah, a kayak is much more of a personal watercraft with
> greater potential for meaningful fun. Then again, a jet ski could make
> a viable mini water taxi for getting kayakers out to interesting places
> with their kayaks in tow, or even getting them out of trouble pronto
> when they get in too deep. I'll get one for my wife to follow me around
> in my kayak. Then she can use the jet ski lanyard to pull the wring in
> my nose even harder! Just kidding.
>
> Doug
>
>> Why paddle a seakayak when you can drive a jet ski, oh pardon me,
>> a personal watercraft.
>>
>> Bradford R. Crain
>>
>>>> Personally, I find paddling can become a bit monotonous at times. Chris
>>>> Cunningham made an interesting observation recently about the difficulty
>>>> enticing a younger demographic to the enjoyment of paddling, when  
>>>>  that same
>>>
>>>> demographic probably isn't too interested in an activity that requires
>>>> hours
>>>> of constant, slow moving activity - given the current generation   
>>>> of younger
>>>
>>>> adults who's penchant for media action and fast-paced recreation may
>>>> preclude the commitment necessary for sea kayaking..
>>>
>>> But paddling is shrinking in whitewater too.  There aren't many young folka
>>> getting into it. When I'm on the river, I'm quite frequently the youngest
>>> guy there, and there are often many,many more people who are a good ten-20
>>> years older than me, than there are who are any number of years   
>>> younger than
>>> me. And I'm 31.  (Oh, and I do enjoy sea kayaking. ) There are some notable
>>> hotshots who are young, and certainly more young WW paddlers than young sea
>>> kayakers, but I'm not sure the argument you're making explains it *all*.
>>>
>>> Geoff
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From: Bradford_Crain <crainb_at_pdx.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 14:11:55 -0700
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply
including old headers and footers.  It's list policy.... 
this post was modified to meet policy]

  Perhaps a new sport could be invented, involving the placement of an 
outboard
motor on the back end of a seakayak. Maybe some of the mechanically inclined
engineering types could comment on the handling characteristics of a 
seakayak
boosted by an 18 hp outboard motor. This sport might appeal to both young 
and
old, and there would be no excuse for being late for supper.

Bradford R. Crain

> her in vt. we have a new sport, snowmobile racing on lake champlain. they 
> get the snowmobile set on water's edge, gun the engine like they are going 
> to pop a wheellie,take off and lean back so the front sleds come out of 
> the water and hope it doesn't stall out. 
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From: Brian Curtiss <bc_at_asdi.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 14:00:28 -0600
At 2:11 PM -0700 7/5/07, Bradford_Crain wrote:
>  Perhaps a new sport could be invented, involving the placement of an outboard
>motor on the back end of a seakayak...

How about a jet ski engine/pump in a whitewater kayak?

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/how20/6a25a78d87273110vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9ryf-Uam0g
http://www.jetkayak.co.uk/splash.htm

Obligatory rudder related content: ...and he doesn't use a rudder
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:15:52 -0700
Bradford_Crain wrote:

> Perhaps a new sport could be invented, involving the placement of an 
> outboard motor on the back end of a seakayak.

A friend with Parkinson's put an electric trolling motor on the nose of his 
yak, deployable from the cockpit, with battery in the rear compartment.  I 
think this thing has about 30 lbs of thrust, enough to move him along at a 
good clip for a couple hours, at least.

He uses it mainly to get home, after his muscles give out.  Very inventive. 
  I've hitched a ride once or twice.  Will tow two kayaks, no problem.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: Geoff Jennings <Geoff_at_texaskilonewton.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 13:23:55 -0700
Start Quote: 
  Perhaps a new sport could be invented, involving the placement of an 
outboard
motor on the back end of a seakayak. Maybe some of the mechanically inclined
engineering types could comment on the handling characteristics of a 
seakayak
boosted by an 18 hp outboard motor. This sport might appeal to both young 
and
old, and there would be no excuse for being late for supper.

End Quote: 


When I worked for Southwind in Irvine, there was a guy who came in and was
working on SOT kayaks with Jetski motors.  I saw at least two he built, but
never got to try one on the water.   I never could understand what
functional niche this was filling, as I'd imagine it wasn't as much fun to
paddle, and probably didn't work all that well as a Jet Ski either! 

Geoff 
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From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 19:54:58 -0400
The original jet ski was invented to mimic the fun of water skiing without
having to beat the brush to find a friend to drive the boat (and it takes
two nowadays). A stand-up jet ski actually does come close to that feeling.

Didn't someone make a motorized surfboard?


Craig Jungers
Royal City, WA

On 7/6/07, Geoff Jennings <Geoff_at_texaskilonewton.com> wrote:
>
> Start Quote:
>   Perhaps a new sport could be invented, involving the placement of an
> outboard
> motor on the back end of a seakayak. Maybe some of the mechanically
> inclined
> engineering types could comment on the handling characteristics of a
> seakayak
> boosted by an 18 hp outboard motor. This sport might appeal to both young
> and
> old, and there would be no excuse for being late for supper.
>
> End Quote:
>
>
> When I worked for Southwind in Irvine, there was a guy who came in and was
> working on SOT kayaks with Jetski motors.  I saw at least two he built,
> but
> never got to try one on the water.   I never could understand what
> functional niche this was filling, as I'd imagine it wasn't as much fun to
> paddle, and probably didn't work all that well as a Jet Ski either!
>
> Geoff
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From: David Miskell <misktome_at_gmavt.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 15:47:23 -0400
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply
including old headers and footers.  It's list policy.... 
this post was modified to meet policy]

here in vt. we have a new sport, snowmobile racing on lake champlain. they 
get the snowmobile set on water's edge, gun the engine like they are going 
to pop a wheellie,take off and lean back so the front sleds come out of the 
water and hope it doesn't stall out. most stay close to shore in case they 
sink but some cross the lake in narrow spots (about 1 mile). i will see if i 
can post any photos.
david miskell

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bradford_Crain" <crainb_at_pdx.edu>
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom)


> Why paddle a seakayak when you can drive a jet ski, oh pardon me,
> a personal watercraft.
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From: Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rudder Rant (was The Only True Rudder Wisdom)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 17:20:15 -0700
Motorized surfboards are illegal in Canada.

Anything small and motorized is going to be noisy. Not interested.

DL

  The original jet ski was invented to mimic the fun of water skiing without
having to beat the brush to find a friend to drive the boat (and it takes two
nowadays). A stand-up jet ski actually does come close to that feeling.

  Didn't someone make a motorized surfboard?


  Craig Jungers
  Royal City, WA
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