So why not get rid of the seam completely? Buy a roto-molded HDPE boat. They cost half as much, are twice as strong and are easily recycled, being basically milk jug material. Plus, the extra 5 to 8 pounds of weight gives you a better workout. Take a tip from the white-water guys; when they want bullet-proof, they go with HDPE. Stop being a fiber-glass snob! Mark Goff Hampden, Maine ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com Return-Path: <owner-paddlewise_at_typhoon.muddypuppies.com> Received: from rly-md06.mx.aol.com (rly-md06.mail.aol.com [172.20.29.144]) by air-md01.mail.aol.com (v120.9) with ESMTP id MAILINMD013-90d472149d71a4; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 21:58:56 -0400 Received: from typhoon.muddypuppies.com (lists.paddlewise.net [206.82.196.30]) by rly-md06.mx.aol.com (v120.9) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINMD065-90d472149d71a4; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 21:58:51 -0400 Received: from typhoon.muddypuppies.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by typhoon.muddypuppies.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l9Q1tR91003190 Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:55:27 -0700 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by typhoon.muddypuppies.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id l9Q1tMRZ003189 for paddlewise-ewfout; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:55:22 -0700 Received: from fortimail.fmail.intelenet.net (fortimail.fmail.intelenet.net [207.38.45.134]) by typhoon.muddypuppies.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l9Q1tKkM003184 Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:55:20 -0700 Received: from pd4mo2so.prod.shaw.ca (idcmail-mo1so.shaw.ca [24.71.223.10]) by fortimail.fmail.intelenet.net with ESMTP id l9Q1tKD9012712 for <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:55:20 -0700 Received: from pd3mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr2so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.178]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0JQH00HMEX8UPP60_at_l-daemon> for PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:53:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml4so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.148]) by pd3mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-7.05 (built Sep 5 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JQH00MNOX8TI440_at_pd3mr2so.prod.shaw.ca> for PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:53:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from doug3021aeed01 ([24.108.68.168]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with SMTP id <0JQH0053UX8S1830_at_l-daemon> for PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:53:17 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:53:15 -0700 From: Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Split Deck/Hull seam--Again! What do you think? To: Mark Sanders <sandmarks_at_ca.rr.com>, Geoff Jennings <geoff_at_texaskilonewton.com> Cc: PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net Message-id: <001b01c81772$f9681e40$6400a8c0_at_doug3021aeed01> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 071025-1, 10/25/2007), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean References: <BBEFLBKEKKAMHPMKAHDKKEMNCDAA.sandmarks_at_ca.rr.com> Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net X-AOL-IP: 206.82.196.30 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: listenair ; SPF_helo : X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: listenair ; SPF_822_from : Like Duane said, his seems have never split (yet). Seams like all that overlap doth a strong kayak make. Your unseamly experiences suggest rather strongly that seems - even in propriety, purpose/designed hull-to-deck joined kayaks, fail during water-in-boat surf capsizes. I'd submit that those capsized-boat-in-surf occasions with the ability of the boat to come out intact, should be part of a _sea_ kayak's pedigree. Nobody bashes around on their kayak like me (on a sea boat anyway, that is) and strong seems are an absolute necessity in my thinking. I haven't seen you in any really gnarly surf, so I hate to think what kind of damage might occur during those circumstnces. I did see a lot of your gear floating around though - no pieces of kayak yet. :-) I don't know if being a larger paddler is harder on the kayak or if there are cumulative effects over time due to that or other circumstances. I'm still toying with buying a new Nordkapp LV (just bought a new fridge, stove, granite counter, so broke again), and the fisrst thing I would do with a new boat if these options wern't avaliable would be to take out the seat, reinforce the inner seams, put on an outside seem (wider than the factory one), and add a keel strip. Then it would be ready for (my) real world kayaking and in every way, be "sea worthy." Or I could join Duane's tribe of do-it-yourself boat-from-wood kayak builders, and build somthing strong, light, and easily fitted out to my own specifications. Regardless, I'm disinchanted with the status quo of mickey-mouse factory-built kayaks, or at least thatse builders unwilling to offer alternatives or employ more space-age solutions/more elbow grease - whatever - to improve the weekest part of the kayak. The seems. Doug Lloyd post not edited >A couple months ago, I sent QCC a CD of my "greatest hits" on the water. I > call it Ka POW!!! When I emailed them about my current split, I sent them > my > latest video from TAKS. So what I do in my kayak is well documented. I > admit > I swim a lot, but there haven't been any nasty contact with rocks that I > would think might cause this kind of failure. Seems to me the pounding > surf > is the most I subject my boat to. I just wanted to get other opinions > before > I actually call them to hear theirs. > > It is rather ego lifting to think that my macho paddling is just too much > for any kayak, but I think there are people doing a whole lot more macho > stuff out there who have intact seams. > > I want to be fair and get what's reasonable. > > Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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