It often happens that folks that use wee short paddles express unwarrented expertise regarding the undesireability of using long paddles. Take that leverage thing. It has been published that folks using long sticks must push-pull harder due to the greater resistance/leverage required to move the blade through the water. This would be true ONLY in the special circumstance that the paddler attempts to maintain the same PAINFULLY HIGH stroke rate that WEE SHORT paddles REQUIRE in order for such paddlers to have any hope of staying with long paddle folks. I agree that the boat used makes a crucial difference in what paddle can be used effectively. The Dagger Vesper and Dagger Seeker are two boats that are difficult to use with long paddles as they have no keels for effective tracking. They require rudders. I guess my boat, Mariner Sprite, must be one of those wide-deep boats. It is 22 inches wide and a little over 16 ft long. I can paddle five miles in an hour at about 45 strokes/minute. A month or so ago, I found myself in short race with two other paddlers. I'm 66 and not in the condition I was in 20 yrs ago (but Next Year I plan to get serious about training; I say that every November to avoid unnecessary disappointment with the year past). I looked over the racers. One was in a Free Style canoe. I assigned him third place. The other paddler was a young, 35ish, athlete paddling a new, sleek (Chesapeak Lightcraft?) kayak. He had one of those WEE SHORT paddles. I assigned him first place. The course was about 250 yards out to a buoy, round the mark and return to the starting line. Horn sounds and we are off. A few strokes leave the canoe behind. I was able to stay within a boat length of the hot boat on the way out to the mark. He made a wide turn. I was able to pass inside by doing a leaning turn and keeping good momentum. Long paddle-good for leaning turns. I didn't see the hot boat after that. I am told that the gap between us increased steadily all the way to the finish line. I conclude that those WE SHORT paddles must only be good for really long races. As for long paddles only being good for pond paddling, I'm sure the East Arctic paddlers were never out in rough sea conditions. I've only been out in winds up to about 25 mph and 3-4 ft seas, so I really can't comment on rough water performance of my paddle. There was one experience with a helicopter down draft that was likely more than 40 mph that came out OK. The spray in that wind hurt when it hit, forcing us to keep our heads down. As for distance paddling, I have no experience. The longest day trip was about 28 miles and longest camping (loaded boats) trip started with a 15-mile day and ended with an 8-mile day. This required us to stop at about the half-way mark and sit in the waves until the laggards caught up with us. They never see the humor in us allowing them to catch up and then our pushing on without giving them time to rest. Wish I had a wee-short paddle so I could go faster! Chuck Sutherland *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck Wrote: > Wish I had a wee-short paddle so I could go faster! In short distance racing, you want a long paddle with a big blade. You simple want something which you can pull with all your strengh without it caving in. I am currently looking for a paddle with smaller blade so I can keep up my stroke rate when I are towing someone up against that 25 mph wind. Or just not going very fast in general. A long paddle with big blades will in general put pressure on your joints, I prefer to put pressure on my mussels and heart. A wee-short paddle will allow me to go on for days without injuries and soreness, albeit perhaps at a slower speed. But as with so much other stuff, one gets used to what one has, and it is plain hard to beat experience. -- Kasper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bradford R. Crain > Chuck Wrote: >> Wish I had a wee-short paddle so I could go faster! > > Kasper Wrote: > A long paddle with big blades will in general put pressure on your joints, > I > prefer to put pressure on my mussels and heart. Now we're talkin bivalves here. BRC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:27:01 4, skimmer <skimmer_at_enter.net> wrote: > > It often happens that folks that use wee short paddles express > unwarrented expertise regarding the undesireability of using long > paddles. I think I paddle with a whee!!! short paddle (did I spell that right?). I'm never sure though because all the sea kayak paddles I own are longer than my Werner white-water paddle which I use on w/w kayaks (and which I'm pretty sure even Mark Sanders couldn't break). So it's hard to know exactly what "short" is. Besides, I've never been able to afford a new paddle. In fact, even though I own an assortment of paddles I've only actually bought one (the wing) and that was 2nd hand; does stealing another one count? Anyway, most of my paddles came with the used kayaks I bought since I've also never been able to afford a brand new kayak. So to those more fortunate (and more wealthy) individuals who have had the opportunity to actually choose the ideal paddle (and kayak) I say, "good on ya". I can only marvel. Because beggars can't be choosers, I mostly just get along with the paddles I have or else I steal one I like better from a paddling pal. So if you paddle with me don't let me borrow your paddle. 'Nuff said on that. I have a book (which I also bought second-hand; are you beginning to discern a pattern here) about the Arctic that was published in the 1960s that has some long-distance b&w photos of either Inuit or Greenland paddlers using paddles 8 to 10 feet long. It's interesting that in one of the photos the paddlers are tethered in a long line and towing a whale carcass. The only super long paddle I've used is owned by Pam (bought used from eBay) which is a fiberglass facsimile of a GP. No one likes it much. In fact, it is so bad that I've never been tempted to walk off with it. That should give you an idea. There are two great advantages to a long paddle that I can think of just off the bat. One is that if you could keep up the same cadence you'd really go fast because the longer lever arm would make the effective stroke much longer. The other is that it would be a great upper-body enhancement tool. I would not like to get into an arm-wrestling contest with Chuck Sutherland (who is actually two years older than me... I'm always surprised to find someone older than me). Especially if he can manage 5mph in his Sprite; I can only average about 4.5mph over a 3-mile course in my Express but I can sprint it up to about 7mph. A very short sprint. Just long enough to latch 7mph into the "top speed" category of the Garmin and allow me bragging rights back at the dock. In fact, that 4.5mph average might even have been a fluke. Instead of driving over to the kids' house for dinner I chose to paddle while my wife and the itinerant 6-year-old (who can now paddle solo including turns and everything) chose to drive. Dinner for a person in his 60s can be a great motivator and I covered the 3.1 miles in 41 minutes for an average (according to the Garmin) of 4.5mph. I'm not sure I would average that under other circumstances. At any rate, if all else is equal a longer paddle is ipso-facto (I've always wanted to use that phrase in a sentence) heavier than a shorter paddle. One can buy a super-light longer paddle but it will always be slightly heavier than a super-light shorter paddle. But even more important is that the combination of the longer lever and the subsequent apparent tip-weight would make using a longer paddle slightly more effort than an otherwise-identical shorter paddle. This reminds me of a story (us old guys love to tell stories). I walk with a cane and about 15 or 20 years ago a paddling friend made me a beautiful wooden cane. It was so striking that I immediately abandoned my Goodwill 2nd hand (naturally) cane in favor of the one he made for me. For about a week I did fine but then developed a terrible case of tennis elbow on my right (cane wielding) arm. When I switched back to the aluminum cane the tennis elbow went away. The increase in weight on that long lever created enough stress to cause problems. So I'm in favor of using a shorter paddle mostly because those are the paddles I have and I'm not going to go out and buy a longer one just to try it out. I might steal one, though. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm not surprised I got a rise out of Chuck with my comments about long paddles. I used to use a 96-inch Euro paddle myself without undue strain, but I want to make it clear that I was referring to super-long paddles like the 110-inch Baffin paddle referred to in the article under discussion. Native paddles of that length were, I am sure, much heavier than the fiberglass Wind Swift I used before I switched to Greenland paddles. Some of them were actually used with the paddle loom resting on the foredeck to relieve the paddler of the weight. Nevertheless, the laws of physics say that the longer you make the outboard lever arm relative to the span with which you grip the paddle, the less leverage you will have. When the difference in paddle lengths is relatively small, it may not be so evident -- or important -- as when the paddle gets super-long. Obviously, you can go too far in the opposite direction, too. Try paddling a storm paddle with your hands fixed at shoulder width apart in the center, as opposed to using the sliding stroke or gripping the paddle by one blade, and see how you like it. The trick is to find the right balance of length, width, weight, and blade shape for your particular kayak and style of paddling. The other factor I had in mind, apart from leverage, is momentum: It is easier to change the direction of a shorter, lighter paddle than a longer, heavier paddle -- say, when you need to make a quick brace. When I was learning to roll, I often switched from my standard-length Greenland paddle to my storm paddle because I found the latter much easier to set up and move quickly under water. It also forced me to pay more attention to body mechanics, but that's another matter. My first "combat" brace was on my first trip with a Greenland paddle, in the Broken Group. I was running before two- to three-foot waves when I suddenly broached to the right and felt myself falling to the left. Without thinking about it (it was like watching a movie), I moved my Greenland paddle from the right side of the kayak, where I had just finished a stroke, to the left and leaned on it, stopping the capsize. I still have a vivid memory of seeing the entire blade submerged nearly parallel to the surface. I like a paddle that's so responsive. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 10/31/2007 12:51:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cholst_at_bitstream.net writes: The other factor I had in mind, apart from leverage, is momentum: It is easier to change the direction of a shorter, lighter paddle than a longer, heavier paddle -- say, when you need to make a quick brace. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have no idea what length paddle Chuck uses but I'm sure if he likes it, I like it. I'm receptive to shorter paddles as I do not race, though interestingly enough, the Epic paddle wizard suggested a 216 cm for me if I was into racing, otherwise a 214cm for touring. Werner's wizard suggested 205 to 210 for touring. What I like about the shorter lengths are the ease of tighter strokes, verticality and faster application of power strokes and bracing. An interesting observation was made at the Skookumchuck tidal race by not just me, but several friends in that most of us appreciated the shorter white water blades in that environment. Otherwise, I'm pretty happy with my 210 cm. In Eric Jackson's basic river running DVD he talks about whitewater paddles and suggests 200 cm for a responsive paddle yet enough lever arm for meaningful braces and rolls. The trend in whitewater is to go shorter, in the 194 cm range. I was privelaged to paddle for 2 weeks on a river trip with 2 world champion slalom paddlers and 1 surf champ, several more who were members of their national team. They all brought their own ideas as to what the perfect paddle was for them, but in general, they were between 194 cm and 200cm and feathering from 30-90 degrees. The reason I'm contrasting the 2 disciplines is that whatever one era uses, the sport moves on. When I started sea paddling the standard answer was 230-240 cm, otherwise you are wrong. I was lucky enough to pawn those babies off to unsuspecting schlepps and move on, although I still have one of those 230's. There are things going on in sea kayaking and whitewater paddling that weren't going on not too long ago. As the old saying goes, the one that I just made up a second ago, give a kid a toy and see what he does with it, he'll be back to teach you how to use it. Since I have the Lendal system I will likely buy a shaft that will make my paddle around 205 cm and stay with that for the sea and the river. Cheers, Rob G ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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