Substantive issues: Mariner sliding seat - I'm glad you have had good results thus far. And like you said earlier, at least the complications (sliding seat versus rudder and/or skeg) are on the inside of the hull, not the outside. There was some talk from down n' under on PW awhile ago about the reliability of a moving seat in a vessel designed for rough water work. Matt nicked that one good, but I'd wondered about the sliding seat sand contamination issue. I have heard mention of it before; I think you are on to something with the aggregate-size factor. I sell hundreds of dollars a week at my moonlight job, upselling contractors expensive cordless drills. Certain sub-contractor groups keep coming back with complaints about battery packs that hesitate to slide of easily at battery change time. Yeap, they are the drywallers. The drywall dust grit, being super-fine, causes just enough friction to bring grief to their work day. Contoured bulkhead - Valley states their curved form bulkhead allows flexion of the hull, particularly when stress is concentrated on a spot when running aground. To me, that isn't "harsh conditions" but rather every day to-be-expected, especially with a loaded boat and un unevenly "textured" beach are encoutered on the open coast. Some of these issues I've been PO'ed about for decades, nay, many more such issues with kayak production and lack of innovative, if not logical, implementation into the build process. No, I won't give you an itemized list here. I'd expect nothing less from Sterling though, in terms of his good-workmanship, build-proper ethic. Matt put me on to him a while back; the man's a freaking genius, living in relative obscurity (from my perspective, anyway). Loading no-bulkhead boats - I forgot to mention Dan Lewis, a local west coast paddler, at least for a few years, was a big fan of no bulkheads which he felt rendered a bomber kayak that much better. He paddles open west coast in winter...now that's harsh. For day tripping, I still like multiple bulkheads with its cocommitant buoyancy redundancy factors. But, not only do bulkhead-less boats offer superior reductions in stress-fractures, they also limit hatch leakage potentials, hatch blow-out possibilities, in-situ hatch loss in remote locals, and the eventuality of often expensive hatch cover replacements. And not only do hatches leak, hatch rims can sometimes delaminate, allowing further leaks. If I build my own kayak, I'm going with a day hatch behind the seat BUT mounted to the rear bulkhead, and a double-redundancy hatch cover system: a large over-hatch (if a stripper kayak, then a section of deck cut out to make the hatch, followed by a Kajaksport hatch underneath). That way I get double the protection, and a smooth, gorgeous, continuous splash-proof deck, with the UV-protected, out-of-da-way hatch below. Scroll down to the CD Storm; below the hatch is another hatch you can't see: http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=1753 Deck rigging: You are talking to a guy who spent 4 to 5 hours per recessed deck fitting for an individual mold-refit on 20 fittings on one of his epic multi-month Nordkapp rebuilds. But for my next kayak, I'm going to the other extreme, with a full sweep of clear deck. I'll have to bulk-down and smarts-up my PFD-packable gear and get everything else off the deck. Do I really need a pump and paddle float on deck at this vantage in my kayaking career? And why have a deck-mounted tow line? A belt-mounted unit acts as a lifeline tether too, and pseudo reg-required throw-line. The situation with your deck rigging on the older Mariner seems easily fixable. I don't like the Mariner paddle cleats on the foredecks though, but then have I ever taken the time to evaluate the merits? Kayak reviews - I couldn't sleep last night; total insomnia until 4:00am. I read kayak reviews for 6 hours straight! But, I did get a much fuller appreciation of the evolution of the Nordkapp for one thing, and confirmation that other short-torso paddlers like me love a low profile deck too, one none-interfering. And many paddlers described an attribute I was _unable to articulate_ to you in trying to help you understand why I like the Nordkapp hull peculiarities. Reviewers called it a "lively hull." There was observations about how the Nordy's lack of secondary stability compared to the, say, NDK Explorer's, made that last bit of completing a roll just that bit more difficult. That was something that caught me unawares for a number of years of "keeping it wet," swimming, when I first started paddling in the early 80"s. One reviewer said the Nordy sucked at big-water rock gardens, but when she was a blowing 40 knots plus on the open seas, the old Nordkapp was the one he wanted to be in. Explains my paradoxical problems being one who likes both extremes (big waves/wind versus the impact zone). I also see that the Nordkapp classic is rated for sea kayaking races in a faster category than the LV model. And yes, the Mariner handling aspect would address many of the more honest reviews of other brands of kayaks with handling/tracking, maneuverability issues. But like Jerry pointed out, wave effects and wind effect are different issues, whose combined energies present both unique problems and commingled difficulties for paddlers and designers alike. I really think that's why the NDK is so popular. Alex Mathews recently reviewed the Explore for Wavelength, stating it wasn't certain fantastic performance aspects that made the kayak such a classic, for it had non, but its lack of anything overtly wrong made it the grat kayak it is. I guess Matt and Cam's kayaks have things that are overtly right about them, at least in the hull department. Hey, let me come down and try em out sometime, okay? Racing with Matt on Lake Union and trying the odd Mariner out (err, kayak that is) on the open coast hasn't given me enough experience yet with the lineup. SOF anthromorphic fit - an internet Google search reveals there is some controversy on this subject; some cultural Inuit regional discrepancies are cited and even Inuit personal preferences. I've always wondered how one can say, "Build three arm spans" when some designs have huge overhangs compared to others. I do know that kayak industry is trying to catch up with the situation, offering more boat sizes for a given model (must me the ladies have more money now). Ah, money talks. Boat aesthetics - hey Craig, if I lived directly on the open coast, say like at Port Renfrew, I'd have no problem with a kayak whose form followed function like a Coaster. Jump in after work, head out to the local rock garden, play until dinner, come home. Who cares what the boat looks like. But for my main ride, I seem to like some form (form that appeals to me). Certainly my function works better when I see good form. At least when I used to date. :-) Honestly? Okay, as for kayak and kayaking and being a kayaker, I still have a huge problem, and may need a twelve-step program. For years (now read this carefully) I've often only gone out paddling because I love being in my Nordkapp. Especially once I had it dialed in for low profile running in open water and configured for a superb fit. But mostly I don't think I'd go out and paddle for the other reasons most paddlers like to paddle, such as "the journey", the sojourning, the fresh air and tang of salt on the lips, and the classic camaraderie, the back-to-nature ethos, or the environmental intensity of the seascape alone, etc. My wife has a McNulty Huntsman. I hate being in it. I have a Laser SOT. Hate it. I now have a new S&G Forager, and while I'm grateful for a new ride, it's just not the same man. Nothing is the same anymore. Meditative canoing in an open Canadian is the only alternative I allow myself. Even my Necky jive in the surf ain't a heap of solace. It is a sad state of affairs to be in. What kind of paddler am I, when I only really ultimately enjoy being on the water, but in my twitchy, friggin fast Nordkapp getting ship-kicked by mother nature off some god-forsaken headland, wind pounding the inner sanctum of my cold brain cavity, then me sucking up afterwards to the sea gods for yet more indiscretions done outta sight of the Coast Guard, family, God-fear'n church friends and my place-of-employment handlers? 30 years of it. Maybe you were right about me ever being happy in a different boat. I'll keep trying. Step two...hey, those Mariner's look cool, gotta try one. Doug Lloyd, Nordkapptured but Nordkapp-less in Victoria <snipperoo - regarding the Mariner sliding seat> I have heard that sand can clog up the ease of adjustability. Of course, sand makes a mockery of many things boat and camping related. :-) I can hear grains of sand in the mechanism (if that's the right word for such a simple device) and I expect that there would be enough sand to gum it up. But I haven't had a problem with it. The seat and slides form such a loose fit that it seems sand gets thrown out when you move the seat back and forth. The web site says that it is "self cleaning" and I have to say that I've found it to be so. I don't think sand will gum it up but I bet a clay beach would. Interestingly enough, at least one Mariner paddler has said that he takes the sliding seat out to use around the campfire ashore and another, paraplegic, says that he adds wheels to the system so he can move around on the beach!!! I'd sure like to see boat makers put some extra glass in the hull where the bulkheads go, say a strip or two perhaps between 2 to 6 inches each side of the bulkhead (that would be a strips totaling 4" to 12" tapered to avoid additional stress risers, with the bulkhead centered in the strip. I plan to do so if I ever do a lay-up. I'd also go custom GRP bulkheads with a lipped fit to spread the load bearing. Some boats do come so equipped with said bulkhead, but only in the stock factory position. I dropped off my Coaster for repairs at Sterling's Kayaks in Bellingham yesterday and Sterling and I were talking about that. Several Coaster owners have modified their boats to include a rear bulkhead and hatch. Sterling said that he doesn't just butt the bulkheads into the hull but instead wraps them forward so that there is a large bearing surface contacting the hull rather than point contact. That seems to me to be a good method for securing a bulkhead in a boat that will be used in harsh conditions. As far as loading a boat without bulkheads, I had originally thought it would be a pain in the butt ... but (!) I discovered that it wasn't really much of a problem. Since I use drybags in my hatches anyway (just in case) I often found that larger drybags wouldn't go into the hatches unless they were mostly empty. So I'd put the drybag in, then load it and fit it and then add smaller drybags. With the open area fore and aft I just load up drybags and stuff 'em in. I use a paddle to move them forward (or aft) like a muzzle loader tamping down his powder. The method is extremely handy for things like tent poles and spare paddles. I think I could sleep in a Mariner Escape with the seat removed and replaced by a sleeping pad and a nice clear cockpit cover. For Rob Gibbert, Sterling and I also talked about deck designs. He and I agreed that anything you put on your deck is likely to be lost. I put charts under the bungees forward, tether my GPS and keep it on deck, tether my flashlight and keep it on deck, and I put my spare paddle (2-piece) aft under the deck rigging. I really don't like anything else on the decks. The deck rigging on Mariners has been given rave reviews by several paddlers but I took a look at it yesterday with Rob's eyes and I have to say that it does look cluttered. Part of this is the 1980s design. Sterling thinks that he could bring the deck into the 21st century and I tend to agree. He wouldn't touch the hull. FYI: he had one Coaster in the shop for repairs, mine came in and another due in today. I guess those little boats get used. <snippity... regarding how paddlers review the boats and gear they own> I've been reading a number of reviews on that site the last few days (I should be writing my SK articles instead!). Man, you are correct. Glowing reviews everyone. The Nordkapp LV even gets 12 out of 10. Discounting the exaggeration factor, should it be a real 10 out of 10? :-) A 12 out of 10 means I could sip my Tippy Assam tea without sculling for support in a Nordkapp when multitasking! One of the reviewers (I think of an NDK) said that he gave it a review of 10 out of 10 because of how much he spent on the boat! Well, at least he was being truthful. Isn't 12 out of 10 like "giving 120 percent"? It seems to me you could just push that boat out and watch it paddle the rough stuff. The buzz words are performance touring, with usually a shorter, bit wider boat for serious coastal play and one a bit longer with more displacement for play and touring. I'm looking for something between those two. I see there's an Explorer LV under $2000.00 on the Body/Boat/Blade website. Tempting maybe, at least to try. Again, maybe my w/w paddling corrupted me. I have no problem with having a boat for a specific purpose. Sure, they all have some crossover but they excel at something. The Coaster at playing in rock gardens and surf or anything that requires agility; the Express for day trips where some speed is nice; and the Nimbus Telkwa HV for carrying a load. The Express has quite a few playful characteristics and so, oddly enough, does the huge Telkwa. The only one of those three that would be a "performance tourer" would be the Express. But I suspect that there are a lot of good boats out there that would also qualify. That's fine. Lots of paddlers like the Inuit heritage of the kayak, and like lines to reflect that. I happen to be one of those so inclined. Oh, I love the lines reflecting the Inuit heritage too. I especially love the lines of the Greenland boats (for some reason I don't like the baidarka look... I dunno why). I just don't necessarily associate how a boat looks with how it performs. I don't automatically assume that a long kayak will track or that a shorter kayak will turn quickly although generally those would be accurate assumptions. I would love to take one of those week-long courses where you build a SOF kayak to fit you and learn how in the process. I just have to fit it into my schedule. Skegs and pebbles! Arggg! Skegs and sand! (There's that sand again!!) Kinked cables. Dang! Yeah, no skegs are a good thing. You know, when I first heard about the shorter mariners, I had in my mind a paddler, sitting bolt upright, seat trimmer just right, eyes on the horizon, then looking left, then looking right to counteract the forces of the sea while leaning left, then leaning right respectively, still remaining perpendicular (like a smurff plastic paddler), the kayak carving the course the paddlers wanted it to - all pivoting from this magical, mysterious pivot point near the Mariner's skeggy abaft keel line. Guess it isn't that simple. LOL... nope. Everything takes practice. When I first tried a playboat (most of my w/w boats are river runners) I expected it to be able to edge back and forth in a hole with no effort. It just doesn't work that way. I realize after reading some of the reviews that this notion of kayak fit a feel is a highly subjective one. Heck, when one considers what the surf ski crowd is capable of, it is also so personally preferential for what one designates good contact for boat control. However, I still know what I'm looking for. And I do like something that is low profile and doesn't inhibit paddling. The European kayaks seem to take this into consideration. I also wonder if the newer keyhole cockpits remove some of the former deck profile of older designs. But to be fair to you and others, I haven't paddled a huge variety of kayaks to really have an appreciation of what else is out there. I've never even tried an Avocet, a Skim kayak, etc. As far as I know, the champion of testing paddlers (with the documentation as evidence) is Matt Broze with over 1000 kayak designs tested. I've watched him during several Pt. Townsend paddling seminars testing kayaks for very specific traits. I don't even know all the characteristics he tests for but I do know that he tests for speed, how quickly they turn flat, how quickly they turn edged, how quickly they turn with and without rudders deployed and, for all I know, dozens of other points. Matt is an expert kayaker (and fast!) so his results have a great deal of credibility. If you want to know the numbers for a kayak design, ask Matt. I'd love to see his results in a database available to other paddlers as a basic resource. Besides, everyone knows how much I like raw numbers. <grin> But, as you said, everything in kayaking is so subjective. We so often choose what we like based on what looks "right" to us and then subjectively give it all the characteristics we think it should have. Hence the great reviews on paddling.net for boats that maybe you and I wouldn't think twice about. We probably wouldn't think their kids are cute either. <grin> I also liked your remarks about what constitutes a "compromise" in a kayak design. One hull design can't be good at everything. If it has a lot of rocker it won't track like it is "on rails" and if it tracks like it's "on rails" it can't be nimble and quick to turn. This is why a designer uses rudders and skegs (and even methods of adjusting the hull's shape itself) in an effort to make one hull do everything. Can one boat do everything? Sure. Can it do everything well? Probably not. What Matt and Cam did some 30 years ago is come up with a hull design that do more of everything without additional doodads than most kayaks. Speaking with Sterling yesterday and looking at his hulls made me realize that there are other designs out there that have expanded on the Mariner hulls. But because so many paddlers want the Greenland "look" it takes a lot of work to combine the two philosophies. Matt and Cam didn't try so hard to copy that Inuit "look" and just let the form follow the function. And, like you said, there are a lot more boats to paddle. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************Received on Mon Mar 17 2008 - 03:44:07 PDT
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