I need a solution to a discussion we have here in Mexico. There will be a Fathers Race on June 22. Everybody is invited, in Veracruz, 18 kms. Basis allow for all boats to compete under equal circumstances but there are some SOTs in plastic very wide and slow and some long narrow boats. The rule and tradition calls for Tour boats. No K1 or race boats or surfskis are allowed. But among those there are some less than 15 and some above 19 . I was going to try to use the hull speed as criteria, but since it only takes the length and not the width (at waterline level), a wide long boat will be slower than a narrow rounded bottom boat. Is there some rule of thumb to take length and width and try a simple equation that will give some kind of handicap? I don`t think there would be time to make hull measurements before the race to run the drag programs. Last year Jon Brindle suggested me to separate the categories according to HYPERLINK "http://www.soundrowers.org/yakclass.htm"http://www.soundrowers.org/yakclass .htm and I am submitting this possibility, but that would spread to categories by age and by boat, and that means few competitors in each and many medals. I was thinking something like that but penalizing with something like 5% of time for longer boats (9.25 to 10.99 l/w ratio) and another 5% for extra fast boats (above 10.99). Runners can work their numbers and decide which boat to use if the 5% is too little or too much. Any help will be appreciated here. Best Regards, Rafael. Mexico www.mayanseas.com No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.21/1456 - Release Date: 20/05/2008 6:45 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rafael, There is an organization in the Puget Sound area that has rated kayaks for a long time. Look at http://www.soundrowers.org and check on their boat classes. They have divided kayaks into three basic classifications: Sea Kayak (SK), Fast Sea Kayak (FSK) and High Performance Kayak (HPK) and use the L:W ratio. I don't know how they do any handicaps, but I think it's all on their web page. Of course, there are bound to be kayaks where you are that don't have a presence in the Puget Sound area but you might be able to find some references... and if not at least use the L:W ratio yourself. Matt Broze is the guy to talk to about this. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 9:24 PM, Rafael en prodigy <silidriel_at_prodigy.net.mx> wrote: > I need a solution to a discussion we have here in Mexico. > > > > There will be a Fathers Race on June 22. Everybody is invited, in Veracruz, > 18 kms. > > > > Basis allow for all boats to compete under equal circumstances but there > are > some SOTs in plastic very wide and slow and some long narrow boats. > > The rule and tradition calls for Tour boats. No K1 or race boats or > surfskis > are allowed. But among those there are some less than 15 and some above 19 > . > > > > I was going to try to use the hull speed as criteria, but since it only > takes the length and not the width (at waterline level), a wide long boat > will be slower than a narrow rounded bottom boat. > > > > Is there some rule of thumb to take length and width and try a simple > equation that will give some kind of handicap? I don`t think there would be > time to make hull measurements before the race to run the drag programs. > > > > Last year Jon Brindle suggested me to separate the categories according to > HYPERLINK > "http://www.soundrowers.org/yakclass.htm" > http://www.soundrowers.org/yakclass > .htm <http://www.soundrowers.org/yakclass.htm> and I am submitting this > possibility, but that would spread to > categories by age and by boat, and that means few competitors in each and > many medals. > > > > I was thinking something like that but penalizing with something like 5% of > time for longer boats (9.25 to 10.99 l/w ratio) and another 5% for extra > fast boats (above 10.99). Runners can work their numbers and decide which > boat to use if the 5% is too little or too much. > > > > Any help will be appreciated here. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Rafael. > > Mexico > > www.mayanseas.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 20 May 2008 22:44:12 -0700, "Craig Jungers" <crjungers_at_gmail.com> said: > There is an organization in the Puget Sound area that has rated kayaks > for a > long time. Look at > http://www.soundrowers.org and check on their boat classes. They have > divided kayaks into three basic classifications: Sea Kayak (SK), Fast Sea > Kayak (FSK) and High Performance Kayak (HPK) and use the L:W ratio. We used the sound rowers categories this past weekend for a Massachusetts race. I like the system over the other systems that I looked at. We'll be using it for the blackburn challenge (a 20+ mile open water race in July on the massachusetts coast) http://www.blackburnchallenge.com What I found interesting was the change in the number of entries in each class for the Essex race. We had 27 high performance kayaks, about 10 fast sea kayaks and about 10 traditional sea kayaks. We've had a lot of people moving to the high performance boats in the last couple of years. Up until this year the largest class would have been the traditional sea kayak class. To figure out handicaps I would look at a certain number of seconds per mile/kilometer for fast sea kayaks and high performance kayaks over a standard kayak. Find what would be the most typical boat in your area for each class and do a couple timed paddles in the boat use yourself as the measurement for how much slower you are in each boat on the same course. I know far from perfect but you want to keep it as simple as you can. 3 classes with 2 handicaps won't that bad to manage or explain. Kirk "kayak classification specialist" for the cape ann rowing club - also known as the guy with the measuring jig. -- Kirk Olsen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rafael, I doubt there is a great difference in speed, in calm waters, between two identical length kayaks. As soon it is a lot of waves any formula will become guess-work! I would not bother with any fancy formulas, as a SOT might be short and wide, but at the same time has a small draught, while a similar length boat that is narrow will have great draught! I propose a simple formula that deducts a half knot per two feet - that is definitely true with our Kleppers: With similar loads and weights the Aerius II is about .5 knot slower than it's bigger brother, the XXL (which is 20 lbs heavier, but otherwise identical), that is roughly 2 feet (more exact: 650 mm) longer :-)! I think it is a fairly OK assumption (if not perfect)! Tord, Boston =========================================== Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 23:24:53 -0500 From: "Rafael en prodigy" Subject: [Paddlewise] question on hull speed I need a solution to a discussion we have here in Mexico. There will be a Fathers Race on June 22. Everybody is invited, in Veracruz, 18 kms. Basis allow for all boats to compete under equal circumstances but there are some SOTs in plastic very wide and slow and some long narrow boats. The rule and tradition calls for Tour boats. No K1 or race boats or surfskis are allowed. But among those there are some less than 15 and some above 19 . -- See Exclusive Video: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards http://www.hollywoodlife.net/younghollywoodawards2008/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] Bradford R. Crain John Winters may be a good resource on this topic, if you can find him. He used to be on Paddlewise regularly. Brad > There is an organization in the Puget Sound area that has rated kayaks for > a > long time. Look at > http://www.soundrowers.org and check on their boat classes. They have > divided kayaks into three basic classifications: Sea Kayak (SK), Fast Sea > Kayak (FSK) and High Performance Kayak (HPK) and use the L:W ratio. I > don't > know how they do any handicaps, but I think it's all on their web page. > > Of course, there are bound to be kayaks where you are that don't have a > presence in the Puget Sound area but you might be able to find some > references... and if not at least use the L:W ratio yourself. > > Matt Broze is the guy to talk to about this. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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