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From: Derek <glamourpets_at_yahoo.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] SPOT - A few observations
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:58:20 -0700 (PDT)
I've been playing with "SPOT" a little bit over the past week.  It seems to work pretty well most of the time.  My biggest criticism is that it does not know when a signal is received by a satellite.  For this reason, you really don't know if it worked the way it was supposed to.

This week, I triggered an "OK" inside a subway tunnel.  SPOT claimed that the transmission was successful.  Unlikely.  It can't even get a GPS signal inside the tunnel.  Perhaps it would have figured out that it can't find any GPS satellite signals eventually, but I only gave it a few minutes.  How long does it keep an old GPS location?  It appears to keep it for a few minutes anyway.

SPOT  was unable to find satellites within the city core.  The tall skyscrapers were probably blocking the signal.  It seems to me that it would be helpful to know where on the horizon that SPOT would find the closest Satellite.  If I had gone to the opposite side of the street, perhaps Spot would have found a Satellite to talk to?  It seems to me that cliff face or deep river gorge would have similar characteristics to a downtown city street.  If you were to have trouble half way down a rock face (rock climbing) you could find yourself in a place with no signal.  Thoughts?

SPOT seems to perform best when it has a completely clear sky to work with.  Messages seem to be delivered to a cell phone in between 1 minutes and 5 minutes.  This delay may have more to do with cell phone traffic then SPOT's efficiency.

One improvement I'd make to the SPOT web page is the opportunity to add a "float plan" or "trip plan."  You could provide a trip plan to you contacts, but if this was available online then it could be provided immediately to rescue teams.


Derek
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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SPOT - A few observations
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 20:35:43 -0700
> This week, I triggered an "OK" inside a subway tunnel.  SPOT claimed that
the transmission was successful.  Unlikely.  It can't even get a GPS signal
inside the tunnel.

Interesting. And doesn't inspire much confidence.

> SPOT  was unable to find satellites within the city core.  The tall
skyscrapers were probably blocking the signal.  It seems to me that it would
be helpful to know where on the horizon that SPOT would find the closest
Satellite.  If I had gone to the opposite side of the street, perhaps Spot
would have found a Satellite to talk to?

I think, the Southern horizon. At least, this is where GPS and TV satellites
are - close to equator, i.e. in the Southern direction from the Northen
hemispehere. You can probably find or calculate the satellites elevation
angles at your latitude, but it should be higher than 25 degrees. You might
stll be out of luck on either side of the East-West street lined with tall
buildings or East-West canyon (if my assumption of equatorial orbit is
correct).
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From: Steve Holtzman <sh_at_actglobal.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] SPOT - A few observations
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 21:55:05 -0700
> > This week, I triggered an "OK" inside a subway tunnel.  SPOT claimed
> that
> the transmission was successful.  Unlikely.  It can't even get a GPS
> signal
> inside the tunnel.

[Steve Holtzman] The SPOT will NEVER claim any transmission was successful.
It only shows when a message was sent. It has no way of knowing (nor does
any locator beacon) if a message was received. So all you really know is
that while you were in a tunnel, the SPOT tried to send a message.

For an OK message, it makes 3 attempts. For a HELP message it sends it every
5 minutes for an hour, and for a 911 message, it continues sending that
message until the batteries die or you turn it off manually.

No type of radio works well in deep gorges. While in the Grand Canyon years
ago, our only emergency radio system was to call overhead aircraft when they
were visible and ask them to relay. Otherwise, there is NO RADIO
COMMUNICATION from the floor of the canyon.

Your expecting too much if you think a personal locator will be effective in
areas of skyscrapers. Your cell phone and 911 would be a much better choice
in that situation. Your SPOT is designed for wilderness areas where there
are no other types of communication available. On the water, it should be a
back-up to your VHF.

Steve Holtzman

 

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From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SPOT - A few observations
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 22:45:22 -0700
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 8:35 PM, alex <al.m_at_3web.net> wrote:

>
> I think, the Southern horizon. At least, this is where GPS and TV
> satellites
> are - close to equator, i.e. in the Southern direction from the Northen
> hemispehere.


Television satellites are in a stable equatorial orbit but GPS satellites
are in low polar orbits in order to be able to cover the arctic and
antarctic areas. Which is why your GPS is always talking to new satellites
as they come into view and the old ones disappear.

Craig Jungers
Moses Lake, WA
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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SPOT - A few observations
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:00:56 -0700
> ago, our only emergency radio system was to call overhead aircraft when
they
> were visible and ask them to relay.

Just curious - can a handheld VHF like Icom be received by aircraft, and
what channel, - or was it one of those bigger radios?
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From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SPOT - A few observations
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 09:10:46 -0700
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 11:00 PM, alex <al.m_at_3web.net> wrote:

> > ago, our only emergency radio system was to call overhead aircraft when
> they
> > were visible and ask them to relay.
>
> Just curious - can a handheld VHF like Icom be received by aircraft, and
> what channel, - or was it one of those bigger radios?
>

Marine frequencies, while still labeled as "VHF", are much higher than the
aircraft frequencies. In addition, the modulation is different; aircraft use
amplitude modulation (AM) and marine radios use frequency modulation (FM).
So unless one of the radios (either the marine or aircraft) is designed to
monitor the other emergency frequency and modulation no communications is
possible.

Over the past decade there have been several radios (some of them modified
amateur radio hand helds) that can communicate all over the VHF bands and,
in particular, the aviation and maritime emergency channels. Some will also
do SSB (single sideband). Steve Holtzman said he found several by Icom.

I do think that there are more people likely to be listening to marine VHF
channel 16 that are likely to come to your rescue than there are people
likely to be listening to aviation VHF 121.5mHz.


Craig Jungers
Moses Lake, WA
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From: Steve Holtzman <sh_at_actglobal.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] SPOT - A few observations
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 09:23:24 -0700
Over the past decade there have been several radios (some of them modified
amateur radio hand helds) that can communicate all over the VHF bands and,
in particular, the aviation and maritime emergency channels. Some will also
do SSB (single sideband). Steve Holtzman said he found several by Icom.

I do think that there are more people likely to be listening to marine VHF
channel 16 that are likely to come to your rescue than there are people
likely to be listening to aviation VHF 121.5mHz. 

[Steve Holtzman] 

The radios we used in the Grand Canyon were strictly aircraft frequency
radios. VHF Ch 16 was not monitored in the canyon in those days (probably
still) because radio communication from the floor of the valley or the river
to the top of the canyon was impossible.

 

The reason for the aircraft radios was because it's a straight line shot
from the floor to an aircraft that you can see passing overhead. Unless a
plane circled back, your communication window was very short.

 

Steve Holtzman
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From: Steve Holtzman <sh_at_actglobal.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SPOT - A few observations
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:40:28 +0000
I don't remember if it was UHF or VHF but it was a handheld tuned to the aircraft emergency channel. This was all before I started kayaking and new anything about marine VHF. 

Steve
Sent from my Wireless Crackberry er..... BlackBerry
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SPOT - A few observations
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 02:45:36 -0700
Steve Holtzman wrote:
> I don't remember if it was UHF or VHF but it was a handheld tuned to the
> aircraft emergency channel. This was all before I started kayaking and
> knew anything about marine VHF.

Had to be VHF, I think, Steve.  Don't think UHF was ever used for civilian 
aircraft communications, although see below for use of UHF for military 
comms:  Here is Wiki on the subject: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_emergency_frequency

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: Steve Holtzman <sh_at_actglobal.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SPOT - A few observations
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 11:05:49 +0000
Dave,

Thanks for the memory jog. It had to have been 121.5 as it was called "Guard". 

We did have to use it to get a medevac for an injured rafter in our group. 

It was a dicey time watching for civilliab aircraft and hoping they had a radio turned on. 

Steve Holtzman
Sent from my Wireless Crackberry er..... BlackBerry
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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SPOT - A few observations
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 04:25:43 -0700
> Had to be VHF, I think, Steve.  Don't think UHF was ever used for civilian
> aircraft communications, although see below for use of UHF for military
> comms:  Here is Wiki on the subject:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_emergency_frequency

Is there any handheld VHF that operates on this 121.5 Mhz frequency? I know
that bigger units installed on yachts can, but handhelds?
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From: Steve Holtzman <sh_at_actglobal.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] SPOT - A few observations
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 05:54:32 -0700
> Is there any handheld VHF that operates on this 121.5 Mhz frequency? I
> know
> that bigger units installed on yachts can, but handhelds?

[Steve Holtzman] A google search shows that Icom makes several handhelds
that operate on that frequency. I suspect there are others out there too.

Steve Holtzman
> 
 

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From: Rich Kulawiec <rsk_at_rockandwater.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SPOT - A few observations
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:01:18 -0400
I saw mention of this device on another list, and discovered
that it apparently uses email to send emergency information.
Here's what I wrote:


However, I can comment on the use of email as an emergency notification
mechanism, and my comment is "very, very bad idea".

Email relies on the SMTP protocol to move around the 'net, and the SMTP
protocol is "best-effort" -- no better.  Yes, there have been scattered
efforts from time to time to craft additions that would make it more
reliable, but none of those have gained significant traction over the
past few decades, and so while in isolated environments (such as someone's
office LAN) they _might_ work, there is really no such thing as guaranteed
email delivery over the Internet, either in terms of timeliness
or even just delivery.

Moreover, mail systems are under constant, increasing, varied assault
by numerous adversaries, and these attacks often lead only to significant
delays and outages.  And on top of *that*, countermeasures deployed to
defend against these attacks often have side effects which result in
further delays and outages. (Example: some sites "graylist" incoming
mail, which means that first delivery attempts are refused, but subsequent
ones will be accepted.  If the sending site's retry interval is, let's say,
four hours, then attempt #1 at 7:54 AM will fail, and the mail message
will sit in the queue going nowhere until at least 11:54 AM.)

As I've cautioned clients, don't think of it as "mail".  Think of it
as a hastily-scribbled postcard whose contents might be read by anyone
while it's in transit, and which MIGHT eventually get where it's going.
Never, ever rely on email for communications where timeliness or
guaranteed delivery are essential -- that's what FedEx or certified mail
requiring a signature are for.

All of which means that it's completely inappropriate to use email as
an integral component of a real-time emergency notification system.
(As a supplement, sure; multiple channels are a good idea.  But not
as the primary mechanism.)

---Rsk
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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SPOT - A few observations
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 09:57:11 -0700
> As I've cautioned clients, don't think of it as "mail".  Think of it
> as a hastily-scribbled postcard whose contents might be read by anyone
> while it's in transit, and which MIGHT eventually get where it's going.
> Never, ever rely on email for communications where timeliness or
> guaranteed delivery are essential -- that's what FedEx or certified mail
> requiring a signature are for.

Agreed. My mail-server delays delivery for a few hours quite often.  Once in
a while email form somebody else doesn't reach me at all (not bounced back,
just disappeared), not very often, but happpens.
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From: Derek <glamourpets_at_yahoo.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SPOT - A few observations
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 11:50:02 -0700 (PDT)
> Agreed. My mail-server delays delivery for a few hours
> quite often.  Once in
> a while email form somebody else doesn't reach me at
> all (not bounced back,
> just disappeared), not very often, but happpens.

It should be pointed out that the SPOT system does allow you to send your distress signal to multiple email addresses.  This does not eliminate possible delay, but it does statistically improve your chances of the message being delivered in a timely fashion.  If one of four messages sits in an email server for a few hours, that still means that three messages went out successfully.  It would probably be wise to ensure that all of your messages aren't sent to the same email server.  Email may be imperfect, but the alternative is a completely independent delivery system.  The cost of such a system would likely be comparable with satellite phones.  

> I do think that there are more people likely to be listening to marine
> VHF
> channel 16 that are likely to come to your rescue than there are people
> likely to be listening to aviation VHF 121.5mHz. 

It does depend where you are.  Some cities have waterfront airports - Toronto being one example.  The city was well within visual range.  On a recent sailing event, we were far enough out that VHF radio was unable to reach shore and Cell phones were unable to pick up a signal either.  In this case, there was no emergency.  We were just a little bit late getting back to our destination.  This example does show the limitations of our standard communication devices.  Since there is a steady flow of traffic out of the city airport, the ability to communicate with a passing aircraft might have proven useful in an emergency.  This is also a scenario where SPOT's signal would have clear access to Satellites.

Derek
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SPOT - A few observations
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 04:40:35 -0700
Derek wrote:

>> Agreed. My mail-server delays delivery for a few hours quite often.
>> Once in a while email form somebody else doesn't reach me at all (not
>> bounced back, just disappeared), not very often, but happpens.
> 
> It should be pointed out that the SPOT system does allow you to send
> your distress signal to multiple email addresses.  This does not
> eliminate possible delay, but it does statistically improve your chances
> of the message being delivered in a timely fashion.  If one of four
> messages sits in an email server for a few hours, that still means that
> three messages went out successfully.  It would probably be wise to
> ensure that all of your messages aren't sent to the same email server.

Derek, I may not understand how you would intend to use SPOT with multiple 
email addressees in the event of an emergency.  Are you expecting each of 
the several recipients of an emergency message from you to separately 
contact the search and rescue folks?  Or, are they to confer with each 
other and have just one of them contact the SAR folks?  Secondly, are you 
expecting to use the unit as a method for folks to follow your progress, 
and if they do not get a signal from you after several days, to contact 
authorities near your presumed location?

The reason I am asking is because there have been three or four "false 
alarms" on the west coast (some in Alaska, some in BC) since SPOT went 
online in which a monitor called SAR and reported the SPOT user overdue 
and/or potentially lost.  In these cases, the person was not in distress, 
and was located after extensive searching by SAR resources, at some 
expense; in fact, there had been a delay or malfunction in 
sending/receiving an "I'm OK" message.  The result is that both the USCG 
and the CCG are now treating such alarms from SPOT monitors as 
non-emergency situations.

With several minders, I'm wondering if, statistically, there might be a 
greater chance of one of the monitors sending up a false alarm, unless the 
minders are coordinated in some way.

I thought there was a specific "911" button which circumvented using email 
to a monitor or minder.  Am I mistaken in this?

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SPOT - A few observations
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 09:06:23 -0700
On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 4:40 AM, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote:

>
>
> I thought there was a specific "911" button which circumvented using email
> to a monitor or minder.  Am I mistaken in this?
>
> No... the "911" function routes to the "GEOS Emergency Center" which, one
presumes, is manned by people less likely to panic than Aunt Mabel. However
the "center" might have its own problems. For one thing, we don't know how
it is routed and, as has been pointed out, if it's as email on the Internet
there can be substantial delays. But those can be mitigated by the fact that
SPOT keeps on sending the 911 message over and over until its batteries die.

If a paddler runs into trouble we assume that some form of Coast Guard will
be the likely rescuer.  And if that's the case then that unlucky paddler is
probably going to be rescued because, at least in the USA, the Coast Guard
is well organized and efficient at rescues in places where it is prepared to
do so.

But if I run into trouble on, say, Moses Lake (where I paddle the most) it
could be a far different story. The USCG, good as they are, have never been
sighted on Moses Lake. The most likely rescue authority is very likely to be
the local fire department or the County Sheriff. But which one would the
"center" call?

One thing is pretty certain: They can't call "911" on a telephone and get a
person who is locked in to the appropriate rescue authority near Moses Lake.
Nor will they be likely to find a "rescue center" in the phone book because
the local 911 authority is a private business called the "multi-agency
communications center" that contracts with the local agencies to coordinate
all their emergency and radio communications.

SPOT may have resolved this but they hadn't as recently as last August when
a hiker in the Cascades near Wenatchee carrying a SPOT activated his "911"
feature and had to wait for literally hours until someone figured out
exactly who to call to send him help. This hiker was, fortunately, on a
ridge. Fortunate because, as we have been reading here, SPOT's weakness is
in areas where there is no clear and unobstructed view of the sky (and not
just the southern sky, either).

If SPOT has a place in the rescue scenario it's probably in the marine
environment where there is a clear view of the sky and there is a clear-cut
SAR authority. There are a plethora of stories on SPOT's web page about
people who have been rescued due to their carying a SPOT device. I wonder if
there is a web page for people who have activated their SPOT's "911"
function and then *not* been rescued.

Craig Jungers
Moses Lake, WA
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From: Rich Kulawiec <rsk_at_rockandwater.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SPOT - A few observations
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:26:24 -0400
On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 11:50:02AM -0700, Derek wrote:
> It should be pointed out that the SPOT system does allow you to
> send your distress signal to multiple email addresses.  This does
> not eliminate possible delay, but it does statistically improve your
> chances of the message being delivered in a timely fashion.  

Probably, but not definitely.  Part of this depends on whether or not
the email origination point is scrupulously compliant with both de jure
and de facto standards for email.  For example, is it located on
a known-clean network block?  Does it have correct forward and reverse
DNS?  Does it obey the SMTP protocol wrt no pre-greeting traffic?
Is the envelope-sender syntactically correct?  Does it issue messages
with proper Message-ID fields?  And so on.

The more of these things they get right, the better the odds.  But a
surprising number of "people who should know better" get it wrong --
e.g., Google, Schwab and Apple.    And even then: there's nothing they
can do about similar sets of problems on the receiving side.  Hotmail
is well-known for throwing incoming messages on the floor, Yahoo's
greylisting is frequently broken, some people still foolishly use mail
quotas, others run broken accept-then-bounce crap like Exchange, etc.

So unless they have at least one very senior and very experienced person
taking care of their outbound email server(s), I wouldn't want to rely
on it for *any* delivery, let alone time-critical delivery.  Heck, I'm
one of the most experienced people out there w.r.t. email operations,
and there are occasionally problems that send me back for a third or
fourth cup of coffee.  It's gotten MUCH harder in the last decade,
as the level of postmaster competence worldwide continues to fall and
the level and sophistication of attacks continues to rise.

And all this is before we get into questions about their underlying
connectivity to the Internet: do they have multiple, independent
connections?  (If only one, then one happens when the same weather
event that puts a paddler in distress takes out their single connection?)

I don't know the answers to many, even most, of these questions, so I
don't want to give the impression that I do.  I merely mean to raise
them, not to attempt to answer them.

---Rsk
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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SPOT - A few observations
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 00:13:29 -0700
> > I do think that there are more people likely to be listening to marine
> > VHF
> > channel 16 that are likely to come to your rescue than there are people
> > likely to be listening to aviation VHF 121.5mHz.
>
> It does depend where you are.  Some cities have waterfront airports -
Toronto being one example.  The city was well within visual range.  On a
recent sailing event, we were far enough out that VHF radio was unable to
reach shore and Cell phones were unable to pick up a signal either.  In this
case, there was no emergency.  We were just a little bit late getting back
to our destination.  This example does show the limitations of our standard
communication devices.  Since there is a steady flow of traffic out of the
city airport, the ability to communicate with a passing aircraft might have
proven useful in an emergency.  This is also a scenario where SPOT's signal
would have clear access to Satellites.
****************************

Aviation VHF don't have marine channels, and vice versa. As most paddlers
already carry marine handheld VHF, in the above situation they would've had
to carry one more handheld - aviation (which at best is splashproof, which
in turn means cumbersome designated drypack for this baby).  OTH, boaters
(those with cabins) may carry all-band dash-mounted transceiver with marine,
avia, SSB, etc etc. One more thought has crystallyzed in my mind after this
described above situation - that SPOT is a very good device exactly for the
above situation - when there is no emergency. To keep family happy, you
know... Like , I'm OK, will be home late.  When there IS an emergency, I
tend to think that 406 PLB with built-in GPS will be more reliable and very
likely, faster tool in the USA and Canada - its satellite signal received by
the ground station is transmitted directly to mission control centre, 24/7.

Please correct me anybody who knows better this anatomy: SPOT distress call
from the main SPOT hub (I forgot where exactly it is), will be
re-transmitted to local 911 dispatch centre - or to Coast Guard? Or both? I
have a gut feeling that local police, receiving a call from 911 dispatch
center, will not jump in Zodiacs or choppers and rush to my rescue, - they
normally don't do that. They will have to relay the message to the Coast
Guard instead.
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From: alex <al.m_at_3web.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SPOT - A few observations
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 20:18:53 -0700
> > It should be pointed out that the SPOT system does allow you to
> > send your distress signal to multiple email addresses.  This does
> > not eliminate possible delay, but it does statistically improve your
> > chances of the message being delivered in a timely fashion.
>
> Probably, but not definitely.  Part of this depends on whether or not
> the email origination point is scrupulously compliant with both de jure
> and de facto standards for email.  .....
> So unless they have at least one very senior and very experienced person
> taking care of their outbound email server(s), I wouldn't want to rely
> on it for *any* delivery, let alone time-critical delivery.

Just thinking aloud. Only 911 out of all SPOT messages is time-critical, if
I've got it right. OK signal or Help needed (the latter is not an emergency)
go to multiple recipents but these messages are not time-critical.

911 signal (to whoever and whatever route it goes after receipt at the SPOT
HQ - which route is still not clear to me) IS time-critical, but it is not
being sent to multiple recipients.
Or is it? meaning, that 911 goes not only to SPOT HQ and eventual
end-receiver like USCG, CCG etc, but to aunt Millly as well, just in case,
to statistically improve the chances?  Then, - yes, aunt Milly could save
life of the 911 sender, if she is home and checking emails at this exact
moment, or is so hi-tech that receives wireless emails wherever she is, and
at all times, 24/7.  I don't have a wireless email, for God's sake. My job
doesn't require it, and everything else can wait (or use a normal "voice"
cell phone). I don't expect too many of my friends and relatives to be awake
and on wireless or "land" email contact 24/7 for me. Unless this is some
major expedition with responsible support group taking care of incoming
emails 24/7, this multiple receipt of 911 signal does very little to
improves the statistics (assuming, that 911 is being sent to mutiple
recepeints).
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