This past week I tested my "SPOT" in the lake. As indicated by the manufacturer, the device floats and it is indeed water resistant. The problem? I discovered that when allowed to float by itself, it floats face down. When I last I checked, there are no satellites on the bottom of the lake. :( If your "SPOT" gets separated from you and your gear on the lake, distress messages are only being received by beavers and fish. This could be a problem. A previous post contained a link to a blog. In the blog, an individual posted that his SPOT had filled up with water and failed. The manufacturer suggested that the device failed because it was in water too deep. Because SPOT floats, it would have to be tied to some sort of anchor to sink below its rated depth. The whole scenario, though possible, would be unlikely under normal boating conditions. If SPOT did sink to the bottom of the lake like this, it would probably be unretrievable. It seems to me that there are three possibilities here: Possibility #1: the screws that fasten the battery cover were loose, allowing water penetration. Possibility #2: this particular unit had a manufacturing defect. Possibility #3: the unit was tied to a boat anchor and tossed in the lake - just to see if it would survive. Unfortunately we can only speculate. It should be noted that SPOT does not have an independent waterproofness rating - like IP7 or similar. Thoughts? Derek --------------------------------------------------------------- Please limit all email attachments sent to this address to a maximum of 0.5MB. All email attachments that are larger then 0.5MB will automatically be deleted. --------------------------------------------------------------- ICQ: 262152266, AIM: GlamourpetsD, MSN: [my email address], Yahoo Messenger: glamourpets --------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Derek - Thanks for posting your report on "SPOT". i see SPOT float when not tied to an overboard anchor. i do see SPOT facing the bottom of the lake or ocean when floating. i do not see a SPOT submersion rating. Keep up the field work and i look forward to your next report. Safe paddling...all ways Regards, john santa rosa, ca --- On Wed, 10/8/08, Derek <glamourpets_at_yahoo.com> wrote: From: Derek <glamourpets_at_yahoo.com> Subject: [Paddlewise] SPOT - Yes, it floats but.... To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Date: Wednesday, October 8, 2008, 6:40 AM This past week I tested my "SPOT" in the lake. As indicated by the manufacturer, the device floats and it is indeed water resistant. The problem? I discovered that when allowed to float by itself, it floats face down. When I last I checked, there are no satellites on the bottom of the lake. :( If your "SPOT" gets separated from you and your gear on the lake, distress messages are only being received by beavers and fish. This could be a problem. A previous post contained a link to a blog. In the blog, an individual posted that his SPOT had filled up with water and failed. The manufacturer suggested that the device failed because it was in water too deep. Because SPOT floats, it would have to be tied to some sort of anchor to sink below its rated depth. The whole scenario, though possible, would be unlikely under normal boating conditions. If SPOT did sink to the bottom of the lake like this, it would probably be unretrievable. It seems to me that there are three possibilities here: Possibility #1: the screws that fasten the battery cover were loose, allowing water penetration. Possibility #2: this particular unit had a manufacturing defect. Possibility #3: the unit was tied to a boat anchor and tossed in the lake - just to see if it would survive. Unfortunately we can only speculate. It should be noted that SPOT does not have an independent waterproofness rating - like IP7 or similar. Thoughts? Derek --------------------------------------------------------------- Please limit all email attachments sent to this address to a maximum of 0.5MB. All email attachments that are larger then 0.5MB will automatically be deleted. --------------------------------------------------------------- ICQ: 262152266, AIM: GlamourpetsD, MSN: [my email address], Yahoo Messenger: glamourpets --------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm confused by one aspect of Derek's report: why can't the unit communicate via wireless transmission with its satellite(s) when on its back? Is there some sort of shield which prevents radio waves from going through it? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave said: > I'm confused by one aspect of Derek's report: why can't the unit > communicate via wireless transmission with its satellite(s) when on its > back? Is there some sort of shield which prevents radio waves from > going > through it? The owners' manual says that this is the case. Steve Holtzman __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3504 (20081008) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 9:32 AM, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > I'm confused by one aspect of Derek's report: why can't the unit > communicate via wireless transmission with its satellite(s) when on its > back? Is there some sort of shield which prevents radio waves from going > through it? > I suspect that the antenna for SPOT includes a radiator (the "driven element") and a reflector which would be used to help focus the RF energy in the approved direction; namely, up. If I were the designer I would want as much energy as possible to go "up" as energy focused "down" would not be the direction a designer would imagine the satellites to be. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 10/8/2008 6:47:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, glamourpets_at_yahoo.com writes: Possibility #1: the screws that fasten the battery cover were loose, allowing water penetration. Possibility #2: this particular unit had a manufacturing defect. Possibility #3: the unit was tied to a boat anchor and tossed in the lake - just to see if it would survive. Unfortunately we can only speculate. It should be noted that SPOT does not have an independent waterproofness rating - like IP7 or similar. On occasion, I have found myself washing my electronic equipment with a hose, with a spray end. This means I was putting a LOT of pressure behind the water I was using. I also use a large Rubbermaid storage container to carry my gear (dry) to the paddle and (wet) back home. When home, I rinse items one at a time as I take them out, with the water allowed to run into the container. Electronics are heavy and tend to be on the bottom, so if the container becomes full, they can be under 1 to 2 feet (30-60 cm) of water. I would speculate that we can force failure of the seals by using excessive pressure when washing or rinsing. Also if we are using wetsuit shampoo on other equipment, the surfactants may enable the water to get past seals on electronic gear. I am being more careful about these things. Do other people have any suggestions? Pam in Washington State **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out! (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000001) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Pamvetdr_at_aol.com wrote: > I would speculate that we can force failure of the seals by using > excessive pressure when washing or rinsing. Also if we are using wetsuit > shampoo on other equipment, the surfactants may enable the water to get > past seals on electronic gear. I am being more careful about these > things. Do other people have any suggestions? Ah, use of "surfactant" in a sentence ... go to the head of the class, Pam! You must have been well-educated by some O-chemist back in the dim past. [grin] Seriously, perhaps the surfactants (hand soap/dish washing detergent, etc.) help in passing those seals, but I think the prime culprit is likely a pressure difference caused by temperature cycling of the unit. Goes like this: you check your gear in the warm confines of your home, making sure the batteries are secure, and seal up the battery compartment (perhaps anointing the O-ring with a small smidge of zipper lube). Having a nice day, you journey the 300 miles from where you live to the BC coast, where the real paddling lives, pop into the motel overnight, which is overheated, and re-check the batteries and gear, opening and closing the compartment again. Next day, you load boat and strap the GPS, the SPOT, and the digital camera into position on deck, whereupon while paddling they get wet with cold, cold water. The water, aided by traces of those nasty surfactants, infiltrates next to the seals, and as the unit cools, the air inside also cools. And, voila! Gay-Lussac's law comes into play, generating a low pressure inside the unit, most likely low enough to suuuuuck water into the unit. But wait, gets worse! Now you have moisture, maybe only a little bit, inside, and the temperature cycling continues as the unit sits on deck in the sun for a while, and air (mainly) is pushed out through the seal while you are enjoying munchies on a sunny beach somewhere in Clayoquot Sound. The vapor pressure of water being a positive function of temperature, some of the liquid inside vaporizes, increasing the positive pressure inside, removing more air. And, worse, yet! Back in the water you go, perhaps snapping off one of Pam's patented layback rolls, and the unit gets immersed again, in that cold, cold BC water, the air inside cools, _and_so_does_the_water inside. Its vapor pressure tracks downward, reinforcing the Gay-Lussac's law effect, and now the reduced pressure inside is even lower than it was before. More liquid water intrusion occurs. And, worst of all! The salty water forms a bridge across one of the positive supply contacts from the battery supply to a ground near it, the battery says, time to push electrons through that low resistance path, and it heats up the inside of the unit more, perhaps frying its innards now, or maybe not Maybe later after a couple more cycles. In short (hehe!), these units should be rated for _temperature_cycling_ as well as pressure differentials. I'd bet dollars to surfactants it is the former which kills the majority of the units which die. My Garmin GPS Map60C has a battery compartment with a separate seal from the remainder of the unit. The remainder of the unit has a little Goretex-backed seal hole somewhere (I think) to allow venting of the unit. But, unlike its more expensive cousin, the Map60CSx, it will survive. The cousin has a data card, behind the battery, and access to the data card is achieved by breaking that seal into the inside of the GPS. Two friends say they have lost a 60CSx from water intrusion, and claim they did not do anything wrong. YMMV. And, yes, I am waiting for the sun to come out so I can go out and work on my boat! -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave. et al - i too have lost my "more expensive cousin" through water intrusion for no apparent reason. The unit has never been submerged/dunked/rolled, yes, i've rised it with a water bottle. Obviously, i was not pleased to have lost the unit. AND the manufacture says "that is unfortunate". Regards, john santa rosa, ca --- On Wed, 10/8/08, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SPOT - Yes, it floats but.... To: "Paddlewise" <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Date: Wednesday, October 8, 2008, 10:50 AM Pamvetdr_at_aol.com wrote: > I would speculate that we can force failure of the seals by using > excessive pressure when washing or rinsing. Also if we are using wetsuit > shampoo on other equipment, the surfactants may enable the water to get > past seals on electronic gear. I am being more careful about these > things. Do other people have any suggestions? Ah, use of "surfactant" in a sentence ... go to the head of the class, Pam! You must have been well-educated by some O-chemist back in the dim past. [grin] Seriously, perhaps the surfactants (hand soap/dish washing detergent, etc.) help in passing those seals, but I think the prime culprit is likely a pressure difference caused by temperature cycling of the unit. Goes like this: you check your gear in the warm confines of your home, making sure the batteries are secure, and seal up the battery compartment (perhaps anointing the O-ring with a small smidge of zipper lube). Having a nice day, you journey the 300 miles from where you live to the BC coast, where the real paddling lives, pop into the motel overnight, which is overheated, and re-check the batteries and gear, opening and closing the compartment again. Next day, you load boat and strap the GPS, the SPOT, and the digital camera into position on deck, whereupon while paddling they get wet with cold, cold water. The water, aided by traces of those nasty surfactants, infiltrates next to the seals, and as the unit cools, the air inside also cools. And, voila! Gay-Lussac's law comes into play, generating a low pressure inside the unit, most likely low enough to suuuuuck water into the unit. But wait, gets worse! Now you have moisture, maybe only a little bit, inside, and the temperature cycling continues as the unit sits on deck in the sun for a while, and air (mainly) is pushed out through the seal while you are enjoying munchies on a sunny beach somewhere in Clayoquot Sound. The vapor pressure of water being a positive function of temperature, some of the liquid inside vaporizes, increasing the positive pressure inside, removing more air. And, worse, yet! Back in the water you go, perhaps snapping off one of Pam's patented layback rolls, and the unit gets immersed again, in that cold, cold BC water, the air inside cools, _and_so_does_the_water inside. Its vapor pressure tracks downward, reinforcing the Gay-Lussac's law effect, and now the reduced pressure inside is even lower than it was before. More liquid water intrusion occurs. And, worst of all! The salty water forms a bridge across one of the positive supply contacts from the battery supply to a ground near it, the battery says, time to push electrons through that low resistance path, and it heats up the inside of the unit more, perhaps frying its innards now, or maybe not Maybe later after a couple more cycles. In short (hehe!), these units should be rated for _temperature_cycling_ as well as pressure differentials. I'd bet dollars to surfactants it is the former which kills the majority of the units which die. My Garmin GPS Map60C has a battery compartment with a separate seal from the remainder of the unit. The remainder of the unit has a little Goretex-backed seal hole somewhere (I think) to allow venting of the unit. But, unlike its more expensive cousin, the Map60CSx, it will survive. The cousin has a data card, behind the battery, and access to the data card is achieved by breaking that seal into the inside of the GPS. Two friends say they have lost a 60CSx from water intrusion, and claim they did not do anything wrong. YMMV. And, yes, I am waiting for the sun to come out so I can go out and work on my boat! -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave - It was a unit a month out of warranty. NEVER submerged, rolled or otherwise underwater. To clean after use, i would pour water from my water bottle or water bag over the unit to rinse off salt water then i would place it on the passenger seat as i drove home, an hour. Then i would remove batts and let i finish drying our on my dresser. Your thoughts? john --- On Wed, 10/8/08, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SPOT - Yes, it floats but.... THIRD To: seajohnkayak_at_yahoo.com Date: Wednesday, October 8, 2008, 12:26 PM John H wrote: > Dave. et al - i too have lost my "more expensive cousin" through water > intrusion for no apparent reason. The unit has never been > submerged/dunked/rolled, yes, i've rinsed it with a water bottle. > Obviously, i was not pleased to have lost the unit. AND the manufacture > says "that is unfortunate". John, was this a Garmin unit in warranty period? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Oct 8, 2008, at 1:50 PM, Dave Kruger wrote: > > In short (hehe!), these units should be rated for > _temperature_cycling_ as well as pressure differentials. > > I'd bet dollars to surfactants it is the former which kills the > majority of the units which die. I've lost several GPS units due to this same issue. I've even lost them when inside a drybag (one of those little roll-top jobs with the clear front designed to be used with a GPS). The drybag just seemed to act as a greenhouse to further heat up the GPS. Also, the seal between the front and back halves of a Garmin GPS are sealed with a double- sticky adhesive tape. This tape appears to soften when warm, thus creating leak paths that circumvent the gaskets of the battery door. I now keep my GPS in a drybag with a clamp-type closure and keep a bag of desiccant in the bag to keep the humidity under control. Seems to work so far. Nick Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> This past week I tested my "SPOT" in the lake. As indicated by the manufacturer, the device floats and it is indeed water resistant. The problem? I discovered that when allowed to float by itself, it floats face down. When I last I checked, there are no satellites on the bottom of the lake. :( If your "SPOT" gets separated from you and your gear on the lake, distress messages are only being received by beavers and fish. This could be a problem. If any emergency beacon gets separated from you, this could be a problem. This is why I believe in what somebody here said (meaning on-deck storage VS on-PFD) - "what's not on me, is not with me". I don't think that many other emergency communication tools provide upright floating of unit by itself. Though, VHF and PLB will transmit as long as the antenna is out of water (but transmission may not be same good as with upright orientation). Btw, - is this only what manufacturer says (no transmission with face down), or did you try to send a signal with unit floating upside down? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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