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From: Derek <glamourpets_at_yahoo.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Between the blades?!
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:18:34 -0700 (PDT)
The last few times I have been out kayaking, I've noticed that I am experiencing the most muscle fatigue between the shoulder blades.  This seems like an odd place to experience fatigue.  If one is "arm paddling" the arms should feel it.  If one is paddling using the lower back, its the back muscles that should feel it.

When I go out I push myself physically.  I'm out to cover the distance in an efficient manner.  I worked on sprints today.  Some muscle fatigue is to be expected.  But why in this body location?  Is this reflective of an error in technique?

Derek
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From: Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Between the blades?!
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:02:02 -0700
That's a new one on me. I have had some type of nerve-like pinching between 
the shoulder blades (upper cervical) but not muscle fatigue. Regardless, all 
muscle fatigue self-rectifies at some point. The bigger muscle groups of the 
back can and do suffer significant abuse from incorrect paddling technique 
or over-zealous use strain - usually from pulling too much water too fast 
when not warmed up, after a period of dormancy, or failure to engage lower 
body paddling mechanics. I'll often switch to a softer dihedral or narrower 
paddle for a time if I start to overdo it - usually in the spring if I've 
had a quiet winter.

Sean Morely had a stroke clinic here in Victoria this weekend which I was 
thinking about as a spring primer but I've got a bad repetitive strain from 
too much overtime on the keyboard at work. Sean's one guy I would not mind 
getting some instruction from.

Maybe other paddlers have some answers.

Doug Lloyd


> The last few times I have been out kayaking, I've noticed that I am 
> experiencing the most muscle fatigue between the shoulder blades.  This 
> seems like an odd place to experience fatigue.  If one is "arm paddling" 
> the arms should feel it.  If one is paddling using the lower back, its the 
> back muscles that should feel it.
>
> When I go out I push myself physically.  I'm out to cover the distance in 
> an efficient manner.  I worked on sprints today.  Some muscle fatigue is 
> to be expected.  But why in this body location?  Is this reflective of an 
> error in technique?
>
> Derek
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From: Derek <glamourpets_at_yahoo.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Between the blades?!
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:28:20 -0700 (PDT)
It is early in the season to be sure.  And yes, fatigue does rectify itself with rest.  This just isn't a muscle group that I would expect to feel this sort of fatigue.  Even if I was overdoing it, I would have expected the fatigue to focus more on the lower back and possibly the arms.

Perhaps it is time to see if I can take a paddle seminar of sorts - one that includes use of video taping and reviewing would be ideal.

Thanks for the comments.

Derek

--- On Sun, 4/19/09, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote:

> From: Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca>
> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Between the blades?!
> To: "Derek" <glamourpets_at_yahoo.com>, paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net
> Date: Sunday, April 19, 2009, 10:02 AM
> That's a new one on me. I have had
> some type of nerve-like pinching between the shoulder blades
> (upper cervical) but not muscle fatigue. Regardless, all
> muscle fatigue self-rectifies at some point. The bigger
> muscle groups of the back can and do suffer significant
> abuse from incorrect paddling technique or over-zealous use
> strain - usually from pulling too much water too fast when
> not warmed up, after a period of dormancy, or failure to
> engage lower body paddling mechanics. I'll often switch to a
> softer dihedral or narrower paddle for a time if I start to
> overdo it - usually in the spring if I've had a quiet
> winter.
> 
> Sean Morely had a stroke clinic here in Victoria this
> weekend which I was thinking about as a spring primer but
> I've got a bad repetitive strain from too much overtime on
> the keyboard at work. Sean's one guy I would not mind
> getting some instruction from.
> 
> Maybe other paddlers have some answers.
> 
> Doug Lloyd
> 
> 
> > The last few times I have been out kayaking, I've
> noticed that I am experiencing the most muscle fatigue
> between the shoulder blades.  This seems like an odd
> place to experience fatigue.  If one is "arm paddling"
> the arms should feel it.  If one is paddling using the
> lower back, its the back muscles that should feel it.
> > 
> > When I go out I push myself physically.  I'm out
> to cover the distance in an efficient manner.  I worked
> on sprints today.  Some muscle fatigue is to be
> expected.  But why in this body location?  Is this
> reflective of an error in technique?
> > 
> > Derek
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From: Derek <glamourpets_at_yahoo.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Between the blades?!
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:29:19 -0700 (PDT)
It is early in the season to be sure.  And yes, fatigue does rectify itself with rest.  This just isn't a muscle group that I would expect to feel this sort of fatigue.  Even if I was overdoing it, I would have expected the fatigue to focus more on the lower back and possibly the arms.

Perhaps it is time to see if I can take a paddle seminar of sorts - one that includes use of video taping and reviewing would be ideal.

Thanks for the comments.

Derek

--- On Sun, 4/19/09, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote:

> From: Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca>
> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Between the blades?!
> To: "Derek" <glamourpets_at_yahoo.com>, paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net
> Date: Sunday, April 19, 2009, 10:02 AM
> That's a new one on me. I have had
> some type of nerve-like pinching between the shoulder blades
> (upper cervical) but not muscle fatigue. Regardless, all
> muscle fatigue self-rectifies at some point. The bigger
> muscle groups of the back can and do suffer significant
> abuse from incorrect paddling technique or over-zealous use
> strain - usually from pulling too much water too fast when
> not warmed up, after a period of dormancy, or failure to
> engage lower body paddling mechanics. I'll often switch to a
> softer dihedral or narrower paddle for a time if I start to
> overdo it - usually in the spring if I've had a quiet
> winter.
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From: James <jimtibensky_at_fastmail.fm>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Between the blades?!
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 07:08:13 -0500
Derek wrote:  I've noticed that I am experiencing the most muscle
fatigue between the shoulder blades.  This seems like an odd place to
experience fatigue.



I've spent decades analyzing forward strokes, especially my own, and
have never identified this area of the body as one that gets much action
in a normal forward stroke (understanding that normal is a pretty
variable concept), but there IS some stuff going on there.

Put your hand in the area between your shoulder blades and move the
other arm around.  Do you notice that the muscles and muscle attachments
between your shoulder blades get some movement when you lift the arm up?
 The muscles involved in lifting the blade out of the water are some of
the smaller ones in our upper body - the deltoids (which are usually
very developed in kayakers who paddle a lot), and the trapezius (which
goes from the back of your neck all the way down to the middle of your
back and is used to lift the paddle and to stabilize the whole shoulder
area).  Look at http://www.innerbody.com/image/musbov.html# for some
good views and descriptions of these muscle groups.

I find, from my own experience, that the area of the back you are
describing gets fatigued from carrying my boat.  Especially after slalom
races, where one often has to lug the kayak from the finish line back to
the starting line, I found the middle of my back between my shoulder
blades was quite tired.  Never happened when I could paddle back up.


Jim Tibensky
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From: Kirk Olsen <kork4_at_cluemail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Between the blades?!
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 08:24:59 -0400
Do you have significant torso twist, and are reaching further forward
for you paddle plant? then pulling back with the shoulder as you engage
the blade transitioning to using torso muscles?

Kirk

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:18:34 -0700 (PDT), "Derek"
<glamourpets_at_yahoo.com> said:
> The last few times I have been out kayaking, I've noticed that I am
> experiencing the most muscle fatigue between the shoulder blades.  This
> seems like an odd place to experience fatigue.  If one is "arm paddling"
> the arms should feel it.  If one is paddling using the lower back, its
> the back muscles that should feel it.
> 
> When I go out I push myself physically.  I'm out to cover the distance in
> an efficient manner.  I worked on sprints today.  Some muscle fatigue is
> to be expected.  But why in this body location?  Is this reflective of an
> error in technique?
-- 
  Kirk Olsen
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From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Between the blades?!
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 22:22:13 -0700
On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 10:18 PM, Derek <glamourpets_at_yahoo.com> wrote:

> The last few times I have been out kayaking, I've noticed that I am
> experiencing the most muscle fatigue between the shoulder blades.  This
> seems like an odd place to experience fatigue.  If one is "arm paddling" the
> arms should feel it.  If one is paddling using the lower back, its the back
> muscles that should feel it.
>
> When I go out I push myself physically.  I'm out to cover the distance in
> an efficient manner.  I worked on sprints today.  Some muscle fatigue is to
> be expected.  But why in this body location?  Is this reflective of an error
> in technique?
>
>
It just occurred to me that angina (which results when the heart muscle not
getting quite anough blood to work properly)  can display different symptoms
in different tpeople. I am not a medical doctor (or, actually, any sort of
doctor) but I can't see why that should stop me from pretending to be an
expert given that I have, personally, experienced angina that was nothing
like "normal". Generally angina is  associated  with a pain or tingling in
the left arm but this is not always the case and one of the *other* symptoms
is a pain or discomfort between the shoulder blades. In my case there was no
pain at all but merely an extreme shortness of breath; nothing that a few
stents couldn't put right. It was only *after* the first stent that an
actual doctor mentioned that they could suddenly collapse. But nothing to
worry about, really..... (cough). Or at least nothing *he* needed to worry
about. Well fifteen years later the joke's on him!!1  But I digress...

So, not to be alarmist or anything, one might consider a checkup when one is
experiencing physical symptoms which seem odd for the effort expended. Even
if we are on Paddlewise we are, after all, human. All except Doug Lloyd , of
course. :)


Craig Jungers
Moses Lake, WA
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From: Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Between the blades?!
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:22:11 -0700
No, but this guy is "inhuman":

http://www.gawkk.com/raw-kayak-daredevil-world-record-waterfall-drop/discuss

Possibly sore between the blades too - like his whole body between the 
paddle blades...

DL


> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 10:18 PM, Derek <glamourpets_at_yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> The last few times I have been out kayaking, I've noticed that I am
>> experiencing the most muscle fatigue between the shoulder blades.  This
>> seems like an odd place to experience fatigue.  If one is "arm paddling" 
>> the
>> arms should feel it.  If one is paddling using the lower back, its the 
>> back
>> muscles that should feel it.
>>
>> When I go out I push myself physically.  I'm out to cover the distance in
>> an efficient manner.  I worked on sprints today.  Some muscle fatigue is 
>> to
>> be expected.  But why in this body location?  Is this reflective of an 
>> error
>> in technique?
>>
>>
> It just occurred to me that angina (which results when the heart muscle 
> not
> getting quite anough blood to work properly)  can display different 
> symptoms
> in different tpeople. I am not a medical doctor (or, actually, any sort of
> doctor) but I can't see why that should stop me from pretending to be an
> expert given that I have, personally, experienced angina that was nothing
> like "normal". Generally angina is  associated  with a pain or tingling in
> the left arm but this is not always the case and one of the *other* 
> symptoms
> is a pain or discomfort between the shoulder blades. In my case there was 
> no
> pain at all but merely an extreme shortness of breath; nothing that a few
> stents couldn't put right. It was only *after* the first stent that an
> actual doctor mentioned that they could suddenly collapse. But nothing to
> worry about, really..... (cough). Or at least nothing *he* needed to worry
> about. Well fifteen years later the joke's on him!!1  But I digress...
>
> So, not to be alarmist or anything, one might consider a checkup when one 
> is
> experiencing physical symptoms which seem odd for the effort expended. 
> Even
> if we are on Paddlewise we are, after all, human. All except Doug Lloyd , 
> of
> course. :)
>
>
> Craig Jungers
> Moses Lake, WA
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