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From: <tord_at_mindless.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] A last turn on Global Warning -> exercise and power -> rechargeable batteries for kayak equipment - will they work?
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 06:59:38 -0400
Paul Hayward's setup seems a bit like ours: A hefty gel-cell, that primarily
power the bilge pump, also supplies the old GPS (which is very power hungry!)
with power via a long cord. We have a few cameras, and about half uses AAs,
while the rest uses their own style batteries. As most of the dedicated
chargers
to the various cameras, cellphones and video-cameras need 220V AC, we carry
an inverter as well, if we bring any chargers along in the first place!

Our solar panel is too small to be really useful, but it prevents, hopefully,
the gel-cel from losing charge (it's just too small - about 2 sq. ft), and the
backing
aluminium plate has very sharp corners, so it isn't ideal in any way, but
light!
So normally, we just don't bring it! The ideal spot for it would be out on
the outrigger, but this is yet a pending issue :-)!

While I use LiPos in my model planes nowadays, there are quite a few issues
here, not just during charging. If you short a pack it will turn into a
Molotov Cocktail,
and if you plan to use a big pack, as you mention, it will be a bloody big
cocktail,
no doubt! I can think of better places to be than in the cockpit of a small
boat
when such a device 'explodes' under the deck. If you use water to put it out
the Lithium will react even more violently, I am sure! The batteries are an
interesting
mix of lithium (which reacts with air, water, etc), plastics, metal and
solvents, a jolly
fire-enhancing mixture indeed! If you puncture it, it catches fire, if you
short, overload,
or charge it with a non-prescribed type of charger, the same result (most of
the time
it takes a few seconds before the mix catches fire, so you might have time to
abandon ship)!

Some packs carry internal fuses, but that is rare indeed! All responsible
modelers
I know keep theirs in metal boxes, when not actually up in the air :-)! Wise
men!

The Eneloop (sp?) AAs sounds interesting, though!

My LiPO charger is nice, though, as it is small, and handles charging NiMhs,
NiCads
and SLAs (Sealed Lead-Acid), as well as various types of Lithium batteries!

Tord
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From: Paul Hayward <pdh_at_mmcl.co.nz>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] A last turn on Global Warning -> exercise and power -> rechargeable batteries for kayak equipment - will they work?
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 03:42:37 +1300
Thanks Tord - that's a very comprehensive list of the dangers of the LiPo
cells. I guess we will probably learn to deal with the risks involved - just
as now we don't (much) consider the bombs we carry round with 'Primus' or
'Camp-Gaz' written on the side of the tin ;-)

Maybe I can have a special 'survival' mechanism that launches a big LiPo
cell up into the sky and shorts it out - to produce either a
seriously-visible distress flare & thunderclap or else a weapon against big
launches on auto-pilot ;-)

Instead of carrying the AC inverter, have you thought of attaching one or
more 'female' cigarette-lighter sockets to the big battery and then plugging
in all the car cables (cigarette-lighter charging cables) for the various
devices. That usually saves weight and some inefficiency (as you convert up
to 240V and then back down to DC). 

Even if the inverter is efficient (and at low loads, they rarely are); the
plug-packs or wall-warts (whatever name we use) are usually terrible - just
feel how hot they get. 

Best Regards
Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand
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From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] A last turn on Global Warning -> exercise and power -> rechargeable batteries for kayak equipment - will they work?
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:08:50 -0700
On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 7:42 AM, Paul Hayward <pdh_at_mmcl.co.nz> wrote:

>
> Instead of carrying the AC inverter, have you thought of attaching one or
> more 'female' cigarette-lighter sockets to the big battery and then
> plugging
> in all the car cables (cigarette-lighter charging cables) for the various
> devices. That usually saves weight and some inefficiency (as you convert up
> to 240V and then back down to DC).
>

I actually like the inverter idea as opposed to trying to match up all the
various voltages for batteries and devices that work on a 12vdc battery but
I agree that the efficiency is terrible. However it might not be much of an
issue depending upon how much solar exposure you can get during the day.
With Jennifer's 30watt solar panel I don't think charging power would be an
issue unless the day is particularly dark.

For one thing, a 12vdc battery won't charge up anything that needs to power
another 12vdc device. At least not very well. Fortunately, that's not much
of an issue these days unless you have a bank of small batteries you're
charging.

Most of the devices that you can buy to charge a device or battery that
needs less than 12vdc from a car (12vdc) are also pretty inefficient; many
of them just use resistance to convert the voltage down to the point where
it won't damage the lower-voltage units. Whether the inefficiency of the
auto-style converter is equal to the inefficiency of the inverter might be a
toss-up. And using the inverter is pretty simply done with components you
can buy at Wal-Mart (or wherever) using components you'd just use for your
home.

I use a 400w inverter which comes with clips for connecting to a battery. At
that point I can simply plug two chargers into it or plug an extension cord
into it if I need to charge more units. So far I've only used it on the
muthah-ship (which, admittedly, has a 260hp engine for charging). But the
VHF and the iPhone both recharge in under an hour. I use lithium batteries
in the GPS and just carry enough of them so I'm not charging them.

Craig Jungers
Moses Lake, WA
www.nwkayaking.net
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From: Paul Hayward <pdh_at_mmcl.co.nz>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] A last turn on Global Warning -> exercise and power -> rechargeable batteries for kayak equipment - will they work?
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:48:05 +1300
Craig said on Wed, 21 October 2009 07:09:

> Most of the devices that you can buy to charge a device or battery that
needs 
> less than 12vdc from a car (12vdc) are also pretty inefficient; 

 

Mostly, I use what the manufacturer of the device gave me for using in a car
- that way I know it's well-matched. 

 

I bought one dedicated 'smart-charger' for NiMH AA & AAA cells. It works
_only_ from a 'car' socket (it's not an afterthought capability tacked onto
a 110/240 device). As to how efficient the 'from 12v' circuits are, I
haven't done any tests other than the old "Is it real hot ?" hand test and
they all run so cool as to be undetectable.

 

Some of the cables may be 'smart' and some of the devices themselves may
have 'smart' charging circuits - today that doesn't cost a lot. After all,
in a car cigarette-lighter environment, a device's power-supply should be
capable of surviving quite a wide range of voltage - much wider than my
gel-cell puts out. If you make a device that is destined to run from a car
socket (most cellphones, GPS, VHFs, etc) they will "see" from about 7 volts
(when the engine is being cranked) to 15+ (when charging the 'house' battery
at max) - plus some wicked spikes. I believe that many modern devices deal
with that range more 'smartly' than by just using a resistor.

 

I realise that we are talking about mA here - so it may be moot. I agree
that in a camper or on a yacht or launch it makes complete sense to have a
meaty inverter; but on a kayak I don't see the advantage of carrying the
inverter's bulk & weight, unless there's something I just can't get to run
directly from 12v.

 

Best Regards

Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand
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