Season's greetings Paddlewisers. I couldn't help but notice two parallel stories in the news. Both incidents involved couples heading to the homes of relatives for Christmas. In both cases they were navigating by GPS. In both cases they left well-traveled highways and entered Forest Service roads because the GPS determined it was a recommended shorter route. In both situations the drivers encountered snow-covered roads and just kept going until they became stuck in the snow. One couple was stranded for three days and was saved by a quick-thinking relative with another GPS unit. In the other case the vehicle was found in about twelve hours. Fortunately, everyone involved in the two scenarios survived unscathed. I do not understand why the GPS units would recommend these people leave the safety of standard major highway routes and turn off into the National Forests on roads that aren't even maintained in winter. What's going on here? Brad Crain *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 3:06 PM, Bradford R. Crain <crainb_at_pdx.edu> wrote: > > I do not understand why the GPS units would recommend these people > leave the safety of standard major highway routes and turn off into > the National Forests on roads that aren't even maintained in winter. > What's going on here? > > I have no less than seven GPS units but only two of them are specific for highway use. Both of them offer several options for routing and as far as I know all GPS units for highway use offer at least some variation of them: 1. Fastest route. This is generally a combination of freeways and major (US or state) highways. No short cuts. It assumes - perhaps wrongly - that you will get there faster on roads with higher speed limits. On my trip to California it wanted me to go to Portland and down I-5 even though that would be 120 miles further than taking US97 through Bend. I took US97 and it finally figured it out. 2. Major use of freeways. This will route you on freeways as much as possible and then use major highways only if a freeway does not go to your destination or very close to it even if you have to drive a long way out of your way. 3. Minimum use of freeways. This routes you via major highways and avoids freeways whenever feasible. 4. Shortest route. This gives you the absolute shortest route to your destination without regard to what sorts of roads they are. They may be county roads or even city arterials. The algorythm makes no allowances for such things as mountain passes, narrow twisty roads, or weather problems. Use this with caution. If a person is not sophisticated in the use of an automobile GPS they might choose the last two methods thinking, erroneously, that if it's the shortest then it must also be the quickest. Most industry pundits are now predicting the end of "stand alone" GPS units such as the ones we now buy for our automobiles. They assume that smartphones such as the iPhone or Blackberry - which do include GPS capability - will supplant the single-purpose units. This may be so but the smartphones will have to get a LOT better than the one I have (iPhone). The screen is too small, the voice is too weak, and the GPS goes off if the phone rings. I think that over the next few years stand-alone GPS units will get a lot more sophisticated and will understand not to route people across roads that are not maintained in the winter. These are probably available now but not in the $100 range. I just finished a 2500 mile trip down and then back up the west coast with freeways only for about half the way and I got to thinking that in some places you really should have some clue where you are going as the GPS is not always right. This is especially true if the unit is a year old (or more) and not updated recently. It pays to have a map as a backup or, better yet, some knowledge. Or even some pre-planning. Nahhhhh. So the short answer is that the GPS units aren't smart enough to know that it's winter and/or the operators aren't smart enough to understand what roads they should be on. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I should probably add that one couple was headed to Reno, Nevada, and the other was shooting for Maupin, Oregon. I believe both destinations are close to vast tracts of wilderness areas, which might be a factor in getting impractible winter routes out of their GPS units. I don't recall their points of origin. Brad Crain Quoting Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>: > On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 3:06 PM, Bradford R. Crain <crainb_at_pdx.edu> wrote: > >> >> I do not understand why the GPS units would recommend these people >> leave the safety of standard major highway routes and turn off into >> the National Forests on roads that aren't even maintained in winter. >> What's going on here? >> >> I have no less than seven GPS units but only two of them are specific for > highway use. Both of them offer several options for routing and as far as I > know all GPS units for highway use offer at least some variation of them: > > 1. Fastest route. This is generally a combination of freeways and major (US > or state) highways. No short cuts. It assumes - perhaps wrongly - that you > will get there faster on roads with higher speed limits. On my trip to > California it wanted me to go to Portland and down I-5 even though that > would be 120 miles further than taking US97 through Bend. I took US97 and it > finally figured it out. > 2. Major use of freeways. This will route you on freeways as much as > possible and then use major highways only if a freeway does not go to your > destination or very close to it even if you have to drive a long way out of > your way. > 3. Minimum use of freeways. This routes you via major highways and avoids > freeways whenever feasible. > 4. Shortest route. This gives you the absolute shortest route to your > destination without regard to what sorts of roads they are. They may be > county roads or even city arterials. The algorythm makes no allowances for > such things as mountain passes, narrow twisty roads, or weather problems. > Use this with caution. > > If a person is not sophisticated in the use of an automobile GPS they might > choose the last two methods thinking, erroneously, that if it's the shortest > then it must also be the quickest. > > Most industry pundits are now predicting the end of "stand alone" GPS units > such as the ones we now buy for our automobiles. They assume that > smartphones such as the iPhone or Blackberry - which do include GPS > capability - will supplant the single-purpose units. This may be so but the > smartphones will have to get a LOT better than the one I have (iPhone). The > screen is too small, the voice is too weak, and the GPS goes off if the > phone rings. I think that over the next few years stand-alone GPS units will > get a lot more sophisticated and will understand not to route people across > roads that are not maintained in the winter. These are probably available > now but not in the $100 range. > > I just finished a 2500 mile trip down and then back up the west coast with > freeways only for about half the way and I got to thinking that in some > places you really should have some clue where you are going as the GPS is > not always right. This is especially true if the unit is a year old (or > more) and not updated recently. It pays to have a map as a backup or, better > yet, some knowledge. Or even some pre-planning. Nahhhhh. > > So the short answer is that the GPS units aren't smart enough to know that > it's winter and/or the operators aren't smart enough to understand what > roads they should be on. > > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA > www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > So the short answer is that the GPS units aren't smart enough to know that > it's winter and/or the operators aren't smart enough to understand what > roads they should be on. Darwin at work. Maybe we should have more of these "faulty" units out there (not serious about that!). I'd guess the liability angle might come in to play on these things pretty quick. Life is not a video game. Bradford also might have included "public reaction" to the recent one-day snowstorm (oooh! four whole inches!!!) in Portland OR (not predicted by NOAA) in his short diatribe about people who are not self reliant. Commuters were pissed as can be that they got "caught" without chains or snow tires, as if it were NOAA's fault they were unprepared. It's winter, in an areas well-know for massive gridlock if folks get stalled. Chains? What chains? Dig yourself out? How? Where is Tom Lehrer's ditty "Be Prepared" when we need it? Lyrics: http://tinyurl.com/amaxj Audio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=758awAebvzI -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > > Darwin at work. > It does seem to be, doesn't it? Of course we have a long history of outwitting Darwinism (survival of the fittest). To wit: glasses which correct the vision of the nearly blind who can therefor procreate more children who are nearly blind. Who all survive by learning skills which won't kill them if their glasses fall off. Will we be able to outwit the outbreak of asthma? Will Darwin win in the end or will technology? Film at eleven. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 01/01/2010 7:22 PM, Dave Kruger wrote: > Craig Jungers wrote: > >> So the short answer is that the GPS units aren't smart enough to know >> that >> it's winter and/or the operators aren't smart enough to understand what >> roads they should be on. > > Darwin at work. Maybe we should have more of these "faulty" units out > there (not serious about that!). I'd guess the liability angle might > come in to play on these things pretty quick. Life is not a video game. > <snip> I think we have enough "faulty" units out there. They're the ones behind the wheel. I use a GPS in my car when I'm in areas I don't know well, or when I'm trying to find a new address. I use one when I'm kayaking as well. (Obligatory paddling content.) But I do try to have a general knowledge of the area, and usually paper maps to back me up if I think the GPS (or me) is confused. I get a chuckle out of people driving down major highways with the little screens on the dash in front of them showing the way. It's a major highway, people. There's not a lot of places to get lost! OK, so some of them are waiting for instructions as to which exit to take. But I see a lot of people who, I am reasonably certain, are just commuters going to or coming from work. -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Darryl Johnson <darryl_johnson_at_rogers.com>wrote: > > I get a chuckle out of people driving down major highways with the little > screens on the dash in front of them showing the way. It's a major highway, > people. There's not a lot of places to get lost! > > OK, so some of them are waiting for instructions as to which exit to take. > But I see a lot of people who, I am reasonably certain, are just commuters > going to or coming from work. > > Well...... in some fairness to those who leave a GPS on much of the time regardless of location (and I'm one) here are some reasonably valid rationales: 1. The GPS will give me my speed whereas my speedometer gives me only a general representation of my speed. I've been surprised to discover that the speedometer error in my truck is not linear across the scale and, while I pretty much have programmed corrections into my own mind to account for this it's still nice to have that up there like a heads-up-display. 2. A GPS with traffic monitoring capabilities saves the driver time and money, reduces pollution and saves gas. Good reasons to keep one on all the time when driving. 3. It's just fun, sometimes, to see how far it is to your exit so you can just zone out for ten more miles. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkyakaing.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I do not understand why the GPS units would recommend these people > leave the safety of standard major highway routes and turn off into > the National Forests on roads that aren't even maintained in winter. > What's going on here? You can plot a course with charts and compass that is the shortest linear distance. And a GPS could even recommend this sort of course. But that wouldn't account for tide, wind and weather...which could lead to difficult or tragic consequences. A GPS may recommend 'shortest' or 'quickest' route, but it should never be trusted to accurately account for all road types and current atmospheric conditions or local environmental issues that influence "distance made good". "Shortest" and "quickest" are based on 'regress to the mean' measure. I don't imagine those formulae include being stuck for 14 hours in a drift w/o reliable cell signal. It's as if the GPS units are channeling Richard Pryor's old routine...."Who you gonna believe, me, or your lyin' eyes?" -Will *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Also realize that a GPS does not look at anything except for distance between two points. There is no accounting for elevation etc. If your on one side of the mountain and you want to go to the town on the direct opposite side, the GPS says that it is only X miles away. When in reality it is XYZ miles away. There is still the human element which has to be used, meaning that you have to employ more brain cells than what is found in a gearshift knob. There is no accounting for a "stupid factor" whenever you put something in some bodies hands and they don't engage their brain in it's use. Greg Dunlap Santa Rosa, CA 38.28.40.80 N -122.45.16.25 W 157 feet above sea level blackey_at_sonic.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of William Jennings Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 3:33 PM To: Paddlewise Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] GPS Navigation > I do not understand why the GPS units would recommend these people > leave the safety of standard major highway routes and turn off into > the National Forests on roads that aren't even maintained in winter. > What's going on here? You can plot a course with charts and compass that is the shortest linear distance. And a GPS could even recommend this sort of course. But that wouldn't account for tide, wind and weather...which could lead to difficult or tragic consequences. A GPS may recommend 'shortest' or 'quickest' route, but it should never be trusted to accurately account for all road types and current atmospheric conditions or local environmental issues that influence "distance made good". "Shortest" and "quickest" are based on 'regress to the mean' measure. I don't imagine those formulae include being stuck for 14 hours in a drift w/o reliable cell signal. It's as if the GPS units are channeling Richard Pryor's old routine...."Who you gonna believe, me, or your lyin' eyes?" -Will *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'Day All, Now with my bifocal spectacles I can start learning to use a GPS as to date I've been relying on a compass and an oversized map, which I can see unaided. Recent posts suggest that I'll certainly get lost with the GPS and in dire straits as a consequence and I'll need a reliable VHF. So I've sold the old one, which was on its last legs and have bought an ICOM M72 as its small enough to fit in my Kokatat MSFit PFD. Does the ICOM M72 need extra waterproofing or will the usual maintenance for 'waterproof' electronics of washing it in clean tapwater after use and drying carefully, be sufficient to keep it alive for a reasonable number of years? If not can anyone recommend a waterproof bag - the Aquapac 224 is just too large to fit in the PFD and in any case I find Aquapac bags awkward and unreliable. Otherwise I'll have a go at making one from clear reinforced PVC fabric. Has anyone else done this? Any tips on suppliers and techniques? All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter said" Does the ICOM M72 need extra waterproofing or will the usual maintenance for 'waterproof' electronics of washing it in clean tapwater after use and drying carefully, be sufficient to keep it alive for a reasonable number of years? Peter, I've been using my M72 for a little over three years now. For normal days, where I expect some surf and a couple of practice rolls, I usually forego the dry bag and just keep it in my pfd pocket. If it's a day of rescue practice where I'll spend considerable time in the water, I use one of the NRS heavy duty drybags. It's way too big to fit in a pocket, but I tether it with a draw string to the shoulder strap of my pfd. It's out of the way and then I just need to squeeze on the plastic lock of the draw string to give it enough slack for me to use the radio. Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve wrote >If it's a day of rescue practice where I'll spend considerable time >in the water, I use one of the NRS heavy duty dry bags. It's way too >big to fit in a pocket, but I tether it with a draw string to the >shoulder strap of my pfd. It's out of the way and then I just need to >squeeze on the plastic lock of the draw string to give it enough slack >for me to use the radio. G'Day Steve, Thanks for the information on your usage - its some reassurance to know your VHF has survived 3 years and the conditions of usage seems similar to mine. When you use the dry bag do you have to take the VHF out of the bag or is it transparent and flexible enough to let you operate the switches through the fabric? Also could you give some more detail on the drawstring and fixing method? All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter wrote: When you use the dry bag do you have to take the VHF out of the bag or is it transparent and flexible enough to let you operate the switches through the fabric? Also could you give some more detail on the drawstring and fixing method? Peter, Although the dry bag is not as flexible as the AquaPaks, you can still use the radio while it is in the bag. It's fairly easy to work that way. You do lose a little volume and for those of us who wear hearing aids on shore, that is a bit of a problem. As far as attaching the drybag to the pfd, I use a loop of cord that I have run through a plastic spring loaded "clip lock". Then I just lay the loop behind the shoulder strap and loop the drybag and radio through the loop so that I have what looks like a half hitch tied around the shoulder strap. By pulling on the radio while pushing the clip lock open, the slack pulls through and the radio is now on a two foot tether. When done using the radio, either just let it sit there on your deck or take up the slack and have it tethered pretty high up on your pfd. I also have a piece of bungie cord that I've run behind the pocket of my pfd so that it can be used to keep the radio from flying around while rolling, etc. Wish I had some pictures to send you but unfortunately, I don't. I'll see if I can get some time to take some. Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A few years ago there was a similar story of a Silicone Valley geek getting snowed in with his family after taking instructions from GPS. After a few days he left to go get help, hypothermia got him, the family survived. I've had a number of instances where GPS asked me to do unwise things, taking an RV down a steep, single lane dirt road that happened to be shorter, being my favorite example. Another time, cruising down the highway towards Palm Springs at night, 80+ mph (just keeping up with traffic), freeway makes a right, GPS cursor just keeps going out into the desert. It took more than a minute to get close to the vehicles real location. I have had three different models of garmin at the helm of my sailboat each reporting a different speed, though each was off from the nearest by .1. GPS seem somewhat useful in determining where I've been, the Vista has shown an elevation gain of 60' during a paddle on San Pablo Bay, but I no longer have any faith in their ability to direct my future course, land or sea. Mike San Rafael *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike wrote >GPS seem somewhat useful in determining where I've been, >the Vista has shown an elevation gain of 60' during a paddle >on San Pablo Bay, but I no longer have any faith in their >ability to direct my future course, land or sea. G'day Mike and all, I'm going to have a go at learning how to use a GPS - mainly as a way to determine and confirm currents and drift. However, in Oz there is currently a fair bit of commentary on their limitations, following a very sad accident in October during a night time race off Wollongong on our south coast. I suspect the accuracies being looked for in the race were beyond those needed for a kayaker but the basic messages are salutary as your experience and the news items being quoted suggest. http://www.mysailing.com.au/news/cyca-releases-preliminary-comments-on-flind ers-islet-inquiry All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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