Really, the theory of natural selection just makes so much sense. A few days ago we were enjoying the benefits of global warming when I noticed two figures walking on the ice on the other side of the lake from my house. The weather has been in the 50s (F) during the day and down to slightly below freezing at night. This has had an interesting effect on the ice which was formed almost instantly in December when a brisk northerly wind kept the water in continuous motion while the temperature plunged down to 8-degrees (F). When the wind stopped the lake just froze; waves and all. So, instead of ice that began with a thin skim on top and then grew thicker over time we had 6-inches of ice overnight. Now, 6-inches of ice will support a *lot* of weight and with the temps well below freezing both day and night by New Year's you could have safely driven a pickup truck out onto the lake. In fact, a few people did. But we've now had almost two weeks of daytime temps in the 40s and 50s and night time temps just slightly below freezing so when I saw these two figures out on the ice I was immediately concerned for their safety. I grabbed the binoculars and I could see that they were boys of about middle-school age walking up and down a fracture zone of the lake ice and occasionally stopping to jump up and down together. They could have hardly chosen a worse time for this as the sun was quite warm and shining steadily down onto the ice. I could see them occasionally breaking through a thin top layer (probably formed overnight from meltwater trapped on top of the main ice) and subsequent splashes of water. They would slip and fall down into this and get wet from the water. What really concerned me was seeing water jetting out from holes (they had kicked in the ice with their boots) as they jumped up and down simultaneously. The problem was that they were about 75 feet out from the grassy island across from me which was only accessible by boat or via a locked gate on an access road that runs down alongside the freeway. The island is apparently owned by a local radio station which has two vertical antennas and a transmitter shed on the island and nothing else. The only way to reach these boys was over the ice from my side of the lake. And if they went through the ice I was not very happy about the safety of going out there to get them. So while I was keeping an eye on them with my binoculars I started to wonder what - if anything - I could do. I was a Boy Scout Scoutmaster for years and I know that an old guy yelling at them from the shore would do no good at all. They weren't in trouble yet so calling 911 would just complicate things if there were others who *were* in trouble. If I were the only chance they had to live through a dunking I wondered how I could manage to do this safely. About 5 years ago a dog that belonged to one of my clients had broken through thin ice and a neighbor died trying to rescue it. The guy had tried to move out onto the ice using a 4x8 sheet of 3/4-inch plywood as a platform... moving it ahead of him with his torso on the plywood and his feet propelling him. When the ice broke the plywood didn't support him and he drowned. The dog drowned too. And ten years ago I had rescued my daughter's husky from a point of land that gave it no escape other than swimming across icy water. That time I sat in her Loon 11-foot kayak and used ski poles to push me and the boat across the ice to get the dog. That actually worked. But the boys were lots farther than I had gone in the Loon and I remembered just how exhausted I had been from that little adventure. Now that I was better equipped for cold water immersion with a dry suit and full-length fleece undergarment I thought that I could safely get close enough to the boys to throw them one end of a line. If I called 911 before setting out onto the ice then I could at least survive long enough for the rescue squad to arrive if I broke through. My plan was to use cross-country skis to spread the load across the ice, sprint out close enough to get a line (with a loop in the end) to anyone fallen through, and then tow them back to shore. In my drysuit with PFD, wool socks, head protection and gloves I would be ok for 30 to 40 minutes in the ice water. So I gathered the gear in the living room, got into my fleece undies, and watched the boys through the binoculars. Well.... wouldn't you know it but the kids jumped all around over there and then, tired and wet, they crossed back over the lake ice to my side and disappeared up the shoreline. I never did get to try out my plan. Apparently the main ice is still thick enough to support two kids working hard to break through it. I hope they don't try it every week. My wife had my camera in her car at work so I couldn't take pictures either. I'm guessing Darwin will catch up to them. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 26/01/2010 2:16 PM, Craig Jungers wrote: > Really, the theory of natural selection just makes so much sense. > <snip> > > Well.... wouldn't you know it but the kids jumped all around over there and > then, tired and wet, they crossed back over the lake ice to my side and > disappeared up the shoreline. I never did get to try out my plan. Apparently > the main ice is still thick enough to support two kids working hard to break > through it. I hope they don't try it every week. My wife had my camera in > her car at work so I couldn't take pictures either. > > I'm guessing Darwin will catch up to them. > > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA > www.nwkayaking.net I suspect that we've all -- I know I have -- managed to escape serious injury or even death at one time or another and been barely aware of the fact that I was in any danger. There are probably times when I escaped to live another day and never even knew how much danger I was in. Or that I was in any peril at all. Sometimes it's just a brief moment of inattention. Sometimes it's a complete lack of knowledge. I once read that the area of the brain that deals with planning ahead and thinking of consequences was under-developed in humans until about the age of 19 or 20. If that's true, it is remarkable that so many kids survive at all. Of course, some adult humans have a badly under-developed sense of consequences too. Like the fellow who walked out in front of a Toronto streetcar while listening to his mp3 player. Never looked; never hesitated. The streetcar left the scene in good working order; the pedestrian didn't. But you could have guessed that. -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Jan 26, 2010, at 3:04 PM, Darryl Johnson wrote: > I once read that the area of the brain that deals with planning ahead and thinking of consequences was under-developed in humans until about the age of 19 or 20. If that's true, it is remarkable that so many kids survive at all. > Last summer my 16 yr old was driving me to the lake. We were traveling on a rural road. Three state troopers raced up to pass us with their lights on. My son dutifully tried to pull over onto the unpaved shoulder while maintaining 55 mph. I mean he never even took his foot off the gas. The shoulder was very muddy and sloped downward. He received immediate feedback from me on that decision. Much immediate feedback. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > I'm guessing Darwin will catch up to them. > You'd better beware, Craig, or Darwin might catch up with _you_! The theory of the Selfish Gene states clearly that you shouldn't risk your life for just any lunatic getting himself in trouble. You should weigh the risk against the genes you share with the lunatic. You should go out of your way to save your children, brothers and sisters, and parents - and only if they are fertile, and if you're reasonably sure they really have the genes they claim they have. Assuming you have some idea of who your children are (not all men have...) and that these two were not yours, your genes should have known better than to plan a risky rescue. On the other hand: Your rescue would have been highly ethical. Bad genes can result in nice people. Should we congratulate you on your high moral standard, or condole you on your faulty genes? I chose the former. Genes are nasty fascist things anyway. More to the point: How can boys be _that_ bloody stupid!? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Niels Blaauw <niels_at_nibla.nl> wrote: > > You'd better beware, Craig, or Darwin might catch up with _you_! > It's too late. Natural selection is done with us once we are no longer "breeding". I have been done with that ever since my wife had me and the cat fixed on the same trip to town. And I have a catnip toy around here somewhere to prove it. :P > > On the other hand: Your rescue would have been highly ethical. Bad genes > can result in nice people. Should we congratulate you on your high moral > standard, or condole you on your faulty genes? I chose the former. Genes are > nasty fascist things anyway. > I would not like to face the mother of these kids knowing that I actually could have done something with little risk to myself in the process. As it turned out, they didn't need help this time. Next time I hope to be paddling. > > More to the point: How can boys be _that_ bloody stupid!? > > Seems to be part of being a 5th grader and the onset of the testosterone fog. Girls get the same thing but in a different form (called "fashion"). The schools cannot get them to wear coats to school even after their school bus breaks down in the middle of nowhere in winter. Coats are simply not in fashion... skimpy little tops are. Craig Jungers Moses Lakek WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think back to my earlier days. Chances I took. Hmmm. The problem wasn't that I was an idiot. The problem was I didn't know I was an idiot. Doug Lloyd On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Niels Blaauw <niels_at_nibla.nl> wrote: > > You'd better beware, Craig, or Darwin might catch up with _you_! > It's too late. Natural selection is done with us once we are no longer "breeding". I have been done with that ever since my wife had me and the cat fixed on the same trip to town. And I have a catnip toy around here somewhere to prove it. :P > > On the other hand: Your rescue would have been highly ethical. Bad genes > can result in nice people. Should we congratulate you on your high moral > standard, or condole you on your faulty genes? I chose the former. Genes are > nasty fascist things anyway. > I would not like to face the mother of these kids knowing that I actually could have done something with little risk to myself in the process. As it turned out, they didn't need help this time. Next time I hope to be paddling. > > More to the point: How can boys be _that_ bloody stupid!? > > Seems to be part of being a 5th grader and the onset of the testosterone fog. Girls get the same thing but in a different form (called "fashion"). The schools cannot get them to wear coats to school even after their school bus breaks down in the middle of nowhere in winter. Coats are simply not in fashion... skimpy little tops are. Craig Jungers Moses Lakek WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hello Doug, You wrote: > I think back to my earlier days. Chances I took. Hmmm. The problem > wasn't that I was an idiot. The problem was I didn't know I was an > idiot. And therein lies the sublime beauty of our idiocy! Just think of all the extraordinary moments you would have never experienced had you been smart enough to know just how stupid you were? :) I can certainly think of a few of my own! -- Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Melissa said: And therein lies the sublime beauty of our idiocy! Just think of all the extraordinary moments you would have never experienced had you been smart enough to know just how stupid you were? :) I agree 100%! I've always believed the saying "No brain - no pain!" Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Melissa Reese wrote: > Just think of all > the extraordinary moments you would have never experienced had you > been smart enough to know just how stupid you were? :) > > I can certainly think of a few of my own! > Now that I think of it... Yes! I won't share them (some are illegal), but I'm smiling to myself, reliving various great memories. Which reminds me of some great quotes; I think both are from Douglas Adams. - Most things you learn just after you need them. - A "learning experience" is where your unconscious says: "That thing you just did? Don't do that." I also remember a life jacket, invented by McManus, that doesn't float. It only has built-in speakers, shouting at appropriate moments "DON'T DO IT, YOU FOOL!" *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Niels Blaauw <niels_at_nibla.nl> wrote: > > I also remember a life jacket, invented by McManus, that doesn't float. It > only has built-in speakers, shouting at appropriate moments "DON'T DO IT, > YOU FOOL!" I like that! I have a tee shirt with the words "try not to be stupid" but it's hard for me to read it. Something that broadcasts the message now and then is much better. However old age and physical infirmities have done wonders in terms of calibrating my stupid-meter. (stupidometer?). My wife is no good, however; she thinks everything I do is stupid. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 27/01/2010 10:42 PM, Craig Jungers wrote: > On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Niels Blaauw<niels_at_nibla.nl> wrote: > >> >> I also remember a life jacket, invented by McManus, that doesn't float. It >> only has built-in speakers, shouting at appropriate moments "DON'T DO IT, >> YOU FOOL!" > > > I like that! I have a tee shirt with the words "try not to be stupid" but > it's hard for me to read it. Something that broadcasts the message now and > then is much better. > > However old age and physical infirmities have done wonders in terms of > calibrating my stupid-meter. (stupidometer?). My wife is no good, however; > she thinks everything I do is stupid. > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA > www.nwkayaking.net Sometimes, I think my wife actually encourages me to do stupid things. She certainly encourages me to go off for a week at a time on Georgian Bay (hoping, perhaps, that a bear will get me if I don't manage to drown myself). She does mutter, from time to time, about all the money wasted -- so far -- on my life insurance policy. I suspect she has plans to spend the benefits, although I have no idea on what. In any case, my accidental death would be cheaper than either a divorce or an affair, and would bring money in: hence a double benefit! I have yet to catch her going to the extent of drilling small holes in my hatch covers or my drysuit, or removing flotation from the PFD. I'm not saying she isn't doing, or at least thinking about, these things: I've just not caught her at it. (In truth, my wife is very supportive and makes no bones about the fact that she has zero interest in kayaking, but encourages me at anything I turn my increasing feeble mind to. Including solo trips off into the wilderness, or cross-country drives.) -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I recall vividly skiing across a snow-covered lake in Yellowstone National Park in mid-winter, fully convinced the lake was frozen solid. It wasn't. I'm around today only because Darwin wasn't ready to give me my award yet. Brad >I think back to my earlier days. Chances I took. Hmmm. The problem wasn't > that I was an idiot. The problem was I didn't know I was an idiot. > > Doug Lloyd > > > On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Niels Blaauw <niels_at_nibla.nl> wrote: > >> >> You'd better beware, Craig, or Darwin might catch up with _you_! >> > Craig said: > It's too late. Natural selection is done with us once we are no longer > "breeding". I have been done with that ever since my wife had me and the > cat > fixed on the same trip to town. And I have a catnip toy around here > somewhere to prove it. :P *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My version of Robert Frost: On the path of life, I have taken the road less traveled, and that has proven to be a huge mistake. (The well-traveled road is well-traveled for a reason.) BRC > On 27/01/2010 10:42 PM, Craig Jungers wrote: >> On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Niels Blaauw<niels_at_nibla.nl> wrote: >> >>> >>> I also remember a life jacket, invented by McManus, that doesn't float. >>> It >>> only has built-in speakers, shouting at appropriate moments "DON'T DO >>> IT, >>> YOU FOOL!" >> >> >> I like that! I have a tee shirt with the words "try not to be stupid" but >> it's hard for me to read it. Something that broadcasts the message now >> and >> then is much better. >> >> However old age and physical infirmities have done wonders in terms of >> calibrating my stupid-meter. (stupidometer?). My wife is no good, >> however; >> she thinks everything I do is stupid. >> >> Craig Jungers >> Moses Lake, WA >> www.nwkayaking.net > > Sometimes, I think my wife actually encourages me to do stupid things. She > certainly encourages me to go off for a week at a time on Georgian Bay > (hoping, perhaps, that a bear will get me if I don't manage to drown > myself). > > She does mutter, from time to time, about all the money wasted -- so > far -- on my life insurance policy. I suspect she has plans to spend the > benefits, although I have no idea on what. > -- > Darryl Johnson *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 9:27 AM, Bradford R. Crain <crainb_at_pdx.edu> wrote: > My version of Robert Frost: On the path of life, I have taken the road > less > traveled, and that has proven to be a huge mistake. (The well-traveled road > is well-traveled for a reason.) > > I have had many experiences with mathematicians and I cannot imagine any of them taking other than the road least traveled. As often as not they're on a road never traveled. Or even imagined. Not that this is a bad thing, mind you; just an observation. :) Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Niels Blaauw wrote regarding Craig's rescue plan of two boys that were likely to break through the ice in Moses Lake: >>>>>>>>You'd better beware, Craig, or Darwin might catch up with _you_! The theory of the Selfish Gene states clearly that you shouldn't risk your life for just any lunatic getting himself in trouble. You should weigh the risk against the genes you share with the lunatic. You should go out of your way to save your children, brothers and sisters, and parents - and only if they are fertile, and if you're reasonably sure they really have the genes they claim they have. Assuming you have some idea of who your children are (not all men have...) and that these two were not yours, your genes should have known better than to plan a risky rescue. On the other hand: Your rescue would have been highly ethical. Bad genes can result in nice people. Should we congratulate you on your high moral standard, or condole you on your faulty genes? I chose the former. Genes are nasty fascist things anyway. More to the point: How can boys be _that_ bloody stupid!?<<<<<<<<<<< The theory of the selfish gene has no "shoulds" or "shouldn'ts" involved. Craig isn't going to reproduce any more. The boys might might well reproduce. A chimpanzee shares roughly 99 percent of our genes. The boys share far more than that with Craig and also have yet to reach their reproductive ages while Craig's breeding days are over. A gene that promotes kinship protection to aid its own survival would lead the person with that gene to sacrifice their own life to save the lives of more than two brothers (or sisters), more than eight cousins, etc. etc., because that would increase that selfish gene's chances for survival. Since the risk to Craig's survival in the rescue he planned would be far less than 100%, the selfish gene theory could still easily fit. Imagine if Craig and the two boys were the last males on earth and, as he does, Craig knew about the condition he shared with his wife's cat. He might well have attempted to save those children even knowing he would die doing so. The theory of the selfish gene is not going to require one to do the math calculations necessary to get the relationships exactly right (but on average it is likely to work out that way). Someone living in the vicinity of you (certainly in tribal times) is likely to share more of your genes than someone living further away, so the theory would predict that you would be more likely to take risks to help someone nearby (maybe someone that you've seen before) than a stranger or someone from a great distance away. If boys weren't that bloody stupid (risk taking) that might also make their taking of risks in the future to save even a close relative much less likely. If boys weren't both genetically (and educationally) programmed to take risks we would have a lot better chance of putting and end to war though. Stock markets would be less interesting too. The theory of reciprocal altruism should also be considered a possible motivation in this case rather than accusing Craig of having bad (or math deficient) genes (or high moral standards). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rather than selfish genes, reciprocally altruisitc genes or even Calvin Klein genes, maybe the Golden Rule counts for something as well. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 2:34 AM, MATT MARINER BROZE <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com>wrote: > > If boys weren't that bloody stupid (risk taking) that might also make their > taking of risks in the future to save even a close relative much less > likely. > If boys weren't both genetically (and educationally) programmed to take > risks > we would have a lot better chance of putting and end to war though. Stock > markets would be less interesting too. > > I have to admit that I did not think through the situation as deeply as Matt has. His remarks about tribal influences are interesting. I've long thought that one of the strong points of American (or any "new world") culture is that we broke so many tribal ties when our ancestors moved away from their old ties and then, again, out of the cultural ghettos they had naturally gravitated towards when they arrived (in the Americas or the antipodes or wherever). It was hard to keep old hatreds going without constant reinforcement. My mother told me stories of scandalizing her parents by being friends with a girl whose parents were Italian. It was apparently quite daring then but seemed silly at a time in my life when Annette Funicello was my idea of teen beauty. My daughter's adoption of a half-black baby with a gorgeous tan and long eyelashes and curly brown hair has also made me re-think tribalism on the family level (which is probably the basis of tribalism anyway). I suspect that the idea of "survival of the fittest" has as much to do with cultural evolution as it does with physical evolution (at least in hominids). This forum is an exciting one for illustrating the various approaches towards taking risks. We are probably all more willing to take some risks than most of the population (wherever we live) but even within our subset there is considerable variation (witness the PFD debate). Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
If there weren't tribes we would have to create them. Teen gangs and kayak clubs come to mind. I'm sure if you look around you will notice them everywhere. You don't think corporations would exploit this need, do you? Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 09:11:48 -0800 Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Natural Selection at Work From: crjungers_at_gmail.com To: marinerkayaks_at_msn.com CC: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 2:34 AM, MATT MARINER BROZE <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com> wrote: If boys weren't that bloody stupid (risk taking) that might also make their taking of risks in the future to save even a close relative much less likely. If boys weren't both genetically (and educationally) programmed to take risks we would have a lot better chance of putting and end to war though. Stock markets would be less interesting too. I have to admit that I did not think through the situation as deeply as Matt has. His remarks about tribal influences are interesting. I've long thought that one of the strong points of American (or any "new world") culture is that we broke so many tribal ties when our ancestors moved away from their old ties and then, again, out of the cultural ghettos they had naturally gravitated towards when they arrived (in the Americas or the antipodes or wherever). It was hard to keep old hatreds going without constant reinforcement. My mother told me stories of scandalizing her parents by being friends with a girl whose parents were Italian. It was apparently quite daring then but seemed silly at a time in my life when Annette Funicello was my idea of teen beauty. My daughter's adoption of a half-black baby with a gorgeous tan and long eyelashes and curly brown hair has also made me re-think tribalism on the family level (which is probably the basis of tribalism anyway). I suspect that the idea of "survival of the fittest" has as much to do with cultural evolution as it does with physical evolution (at least in hominids). This forum is an exciting one for illustrating the various approaches towards taking risks. We are probably all more willing to take some risks than most of the population (wherever we live) but even within our subset there is considerable variation (witness the PFD debate). Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 2:05 PM, MATT MARINER BROZE <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com>wrote: > If there weren't tribes we would have to create them. Teen gangs and kayak > clubs come to mind. I'm sure if you look around you will notice them > everywhere. You don't think corporations would exploit this need, do you? > Oh I agree totally. But when tribal ties are broken it becomes more difficult to continue with whatever old tribal issues existed before the break. We are making new ones, however, and they are just as likely to eventually resolve into the blind enmity or friendship that the old ones had. Fandom, clubs, gangs, cities. I often wonder why people become obsessive fans of a team that may have no players from their city or (sometimes, like hockey) from their country. Homo sapiens seems to be a herd animal. :P Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
i am going to visit family in naples, fla feb 4 -10 and am looking to meet up with any local paddlewisers to paddle with or give suggestions for area kayaking trips. i expect to rent a kayak from saltwater sports in naples. thanks, david miskell 802-318-0576) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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