http://www.canadiandriver.com/2010/03/22/feature-not-so-fast-toyota%E2%80%99s-unintended-acceleration.htm?page=all I think this is a pretty good analysis of the "runaway" situation by an independent and experienced analyst. It might in fact happen once in a long while, but I think a lot of it is "pedal misapplication" as suggested. Gary On 10/03/2010 11:57 AM, Bradford R. Crain wrote: > Craig: I think Toyota is engaged in a gigantic coverup, Floor mats > and brake pedals don't begin to address the recent erratic behavior of their > cars. Almost all of my kayaking buddies drive Toyotas, and I'd hate to > see them accelerate uncontrollably to 100 mph on our narrow, winding roads. > The consequence would be undeniable. > > Brad *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bring back the Tin Lizzies, Dagnabit! On 4/12/2010 4:16 PM, Gary J. MacDonald wrote: > http://www.canadiandriver.com/2010/03/22/feature-not-so-fast-toyota%E2%80%99s-unintended-acceleration.htm?page=all > > > I think this is a pretty good analysis of the "runaway" situation by > an independent and experienced analyst. > It might in fact happen once in a long while, but I think a lot of it > is "pedal misapplication" as suggested. > > Gary > > On 10/03/2010 11:57 AM, Bradford R. Crain wrote: >> Craig: I think Toyota is engaged in a gigantic coverup, Floor >> mats >> and brake pedals don't begin to address the recent erratic behavior >> of their >> cars. Almost all of my kayaking buddies drive Toyotas, and I'd hate to >> see them accelerate uncontrollably to 100 mph on our narrow, winding >> roads. >> The consequence would be undeniable. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Mark Sanders <marksanders_at_sandmarks.net>wrote: > Bring back the Tin Lizzies, Dagnabit! > > > BUY KIA!!! :P *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
OMon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Gary J. MacDonald <garyj_at_rogers.com> wrote: > > http://www.canadiandriver.com/2010/03/22/feature-not-so-fast-toyota%E2%80%99s-unintended-acceleration.htm?page=all > > I think this is a pretty good analysis of the "runaway" situation by an > independent and experienced analyst. > It might in fact happen once in a long while, but I think a lot of it is > "pedal misapplication" as suggested. > > Gary > I read the Canadian Driver story and I think it's BS. At least with the modern cases. And possibly BS with regard to the cases the author cites from the 1970s and 1980s (pre "drive-by-wire"). The author is claiming that the modern problems stem from people inadvertently stepping on the accelerator pedal (instead of the brake) before shifting the automatic transmission from "park" to "drive". Then, when the car moves more than the driver expects he/she steps harder on the accelerator thinking that it's the brake. You can demonstrate this on your own vehicle if you like. This may have worked in the 1970s and 1980s but it doesn't wash with modern vehicles because there is a lockout in these systems that will not allow the vehicle to shift into "drive" from "park" unless the brake is depressed. The locking system is not fooled by the driver depressing the accelerator pedal instead. Further, it does not account for sudden acceleration of a vehicle while it has been operating in a normal manner on the roadway. Nor does it account for the several instances of Toyotas being driven into a dealership with the engine racing by people who managed to get the vehicle into neutral (which is not always possible, from some reports). I also noticed that the author is an expert in human ergonomics. Maybe it's a case of only knowing how to use a hammer so that becomes the tool of choice for everything. He understands human frailties and therefore suspects human frailty. If a California State Patrol officer can get involved in a sudden acceleration incident (which kills him and his family at an intersection they cannot stop for) then I suspect it's not a human problem. And Steve Wozniak, a guy who may know a little something about computers, says that his Toyota has run away with him several times but he's always managed to fiddle with enough things to make it stop. Tord's remarks about a complete shut-off system that they installed on the buses he drives seems like a reasonable idea to me. It won't solve the problem of runaway vehicles but it will certainly stop *that* runaway vehicle. Also notice that none of these problems have been reported in vehicles with manual transmissions. Interesting, no? Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Canadian Driver story and I think it's BS Craig - you may be right, the guy may be a shill for Audi (or Toyota) - but he made a surprising amount of sense to me (and I'm not uncritical of Psychology). Assuming he's on the level with the research (if not, he can prove anything ;-), he has one very compelling argument. To me, the biggest argument for the validity of the 1980's Audi analysis is the disappearance of the problem when Audi invented the brake pedal / transmission interlock switch. That is the sort of solution that really appeals to me. Make people step on the correct pedal before they can engage a gear to drive away and suddenly all the scary Audi stories stop... All the run-away Audi accelerators magically stop running away with people - because the people are forced to do it correctly. Humans make mistakes. They are also very resistant to the idea that they can make mistakes. A quick look at the history of table saws - which are mostly free of software - will demonstrate both those principles pretty well. There are lots of missing digits and lots of missing blade guards (removed by the operators). If you want to make a machine safe - the hardest part is idiot-proofing it. Software errors are much, much easier to get right. I say that after many years of work with machinery, small computers and designing what we used to call 'the man-machine interface' - to draw on for all the examples you could ask for. So Dr Schmidt may well be extrapolating incorrectly into 2010 - I've no proof either way. If I had to bet, I'd probably put my money on him rather than on the quality of analysis of our modern hyped-up media... I also don't believe in the infallibility of California State Police officers - hell, even aircraft captains get it wrong from time to time and the selection & training processes they face are somewhat more careful. Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Human error is certainly possible, but one of the Toyotas that went out of control in California was had plenty of evidence afterward that the driver was applying the brakes as hard as he could. Here in Minnesota, a man was sentenced to five years in prison for manslaughter after his Toyota failed to stop, and hit another vehicle. With no evidence that the car was faulty, the jury concluded he had stepped on the accelerator instead of the brake pedal. The case is now being reviewed in light of the recall. Imagine being sent to prison because your car acted up! Chuck Holst __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5025 (20100413) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When you read a story like this, it's not so hard to believe pilot error in the Toyotas... At least she'll look young and fresh at her next hearing. *http://tinyurl.com/yzj9tz5 * *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
She should have taken a bit more time and touched up the bleach job on her hair while she was at it. But I'm not sure anything will make her look "young and fresh". On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Mark Sanders <marksanders_at_sandmarks.net>wrote: > When you read a story like this, it's not so hard to believe pilot error > in the Toyotas... > At least she'll look young and fresh at her next hearing. > > *http://tinyurl.com/yzj9tz5 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 1:17 AM, Paul Hayward <pdh_at_mmcl.co.nz> wrote: > > So Dr Schmidt may well be extrapolating incorrectly into 2010 - I've no > proof either way. If I had to bet, I'd probably put my money on him rather > than on the quality of analysis of our modern hyped-up media... I also > don't > believe in the infallibility of California State Police officers - hell, > even aircraft captains get it wrong from time to time and the selection & > training processes they face are somewhat more careful. > > I have lots of problems with psychology, actually. My experience with psych was mainly when I was an undergrad engineer and I was left less than impressed. I think that Dr. Schmidt (who is "emeritus" by the way) is probably still living in 1980. Most of those incidents happened at start-up and involved vehicles hitting the garage wall or the vehicle in front of them. The 2000 incidents seem to be happening during operation when the driver has already been moving for some period of time. And if the 1980 Audi cars were designed so that a significant number of drivers could not tell whether their foot was on the accelerator or the brake then I submit that there just might have been a design problem. Never having owned an Audi I couldn't say. It doesn't seem to me to be *that* complicated getting a car started and into gear. The Calif. State Patrol officer was actually on the cell phone going through procedures to try to shut the car down and couldn't. I can understand a brief, momentary lapse where someone might confuse stepping on the accelerator pedal for stepping on the brake but I can't see a steady state incident unless the driver were too stupid to understand "turn off the key". Airplane pilots can get overloaded with information and make mistakes or can get distracted and make mistakes but they don't very often make mistakes going through the check list. And, anyway, the California cop was not the only one to have a problem. Steve Wozniak, the co-founder of Apple (actually the guy who designed and built the first few versions) had something to say about his Prius and unintended acceleration. In a short interview (or at least the portion I saw was short) he mentioned that it had happened to him more than once and while he couldn't reproduce the problem he had figured out a way to get out of it. Unfortunately he left that part out. Then there has been at least one incident of unintended acceleration in which the driver drove his vehicle into a Toyota dealership and left it sitting in neutral at full engine speed while the floor mats were in the trunk. If I were to speculate I'd guess that the problem will resolve down to a combination of design problems compounded by circumstances not easily recognizable by the average driver. Either that or stray cosmic rays. Don't laugh. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Pardon me, I thought I was subscribing to a paddling discussion group. Well, as long as I'm here, I'll make a comment or two. On 4/13/2010 10:22 AM, Craig Jungers wrote: >> I have lots of problems with psychology, actually. My experience with psych > was mainly when I was an undergrad engineer and I was left less than > impressed. I think that Dr. Schmidt (who is "emeritus" by the way) is > probably still living in 1980. I think that Craig is going out on a limb expressing opinions about psychology if all he knows is Psych 101 from the 1960's. Full disclosure: I have 2 degrees in psychology. "Emeritus" is the word we in the academic world use to mean "He's retired, but still working and doing important enough stuff that we'll provide him with an office, phone, secretary, and computer." > And if the 1980 Audi cars were designed so that a significant number of > drivers could not tell whether their foot was on the accelerator or the > brake then I submit that there just might have been a design problem. Never > having owned an Audi I couldn't say. It doesn't seem to me to be *that* > complicated getting a car started and into gear. But in fact it was, or at least people _thought_ it was. And the 49 other models from 19 other manufacturers were all poorly designed as well? I used to own a VW Beetle that I could heel-and-toe with the edge of my foot. Those pedals were close. Ever hear about unintended accelleration with a Beetle? Stop snickering. > The Calif. State Patrol officer was actually on the cell phone going through > procedures to try to shut the car down and couldn't. I can understand a > brief, momentary lapse where someone might confuse stepping on the > accelerator pedal for stepping on the brake but I can't see a steady state > incident unless the driver were too stupid to understand "turn off the key". The guy on the phone was the CSPO's brother in law, and I didn't hear any evidence that he was doing anything besides praying. Nobody used the words "turn off the key" on the tape. One would think CSPOs would not panic in that kind of situation, but apparently this one did. Panic, you'll recall, is one of the factors that Schmidt points to as a cause. > Airplane pilots can get overloaded with information and make mistakes or can > get distracted and make mistakes but they don't very often make mistakes > going through the check list. Check list? For cars? > If I were to speculate I'd guess that the problem will resolve down to a > combination of design problems compounded by circumstances not easily > recognizable by the average driver. Yup. There seems to be evidence that some Toyotas have throttle problems, but really none that Audis did > Either that or stray cosmic rays. Don't laugh. Not laughing. Steve -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve Cramer wrote: > Pardon me, I thought I was subscribing to a paddling discussion group. Jokes on us, I guess. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Apr 13, 2010, at 8:31 AM, Steve Cramer wrote: > Pardon me, I thought I was subscribing to a paddling discussion group. It is and you are. If this were any other kind of internet discussion group it would have fallen into flame wars and Toyota would have been compared to Hitler long ago. Paul Montgomery paul_at_paddleandoar.com http://paddleandoar.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Touche. On 4/13/2010 6:38 PM, Paul Montgomery wrote: > On Apr 13, 2010, at 8:31 AM, Steve Cramer wrote: > >> Pardon me, I thought I was subscribing to a paddling discussion group. > > It is and you are. If this were any other kind of internet discussion > group it would have fallen into flame wars and Toyota would have been > compared to Hitler long ago. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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